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US Presidential Election 2024 - Trump vs Harris - Vote Hard with a Vengence

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All politicians (really, all people) make statements that range from misleading to mythical because neither they nor their staff (or friends) have adequately checked the details ("fine people"), or they hear/read what they want to despite what was said/written ("51 intelligence officials..."), or the issue simply becomes fuzzy in their minds (many of Biden's "onion belt" stories). There's almost always some foundation that hasn't been correctly represented and is worthwhile talking about. Being clear and correct and complete are useful; evasion-by-pedantry isn't useful.
Murdering babies.

Did Trump and his staff not adequately check the truth on murdering babies?

Did Trump hear/read what he wanted to regarding murdering babies?

Or is Trump’s mind simply fuzzy on murdering babies?

This isn’t “pedantry”. He talked about something that is an absolute falsehood. You’re trying to softball something that represents, at best, manifest incompetence on the part of his campaign and himself if we with option one; or gross moral or ethical failings on his part if we go with two or three. But I will humour you if you want to tell us which of those three you think led Trump to lie so egregiously.

That's the kind of lies that need to be investigated. One of the foundations of the story appears to be that 20,000 people moved into a community of 60,000 (Springfield OH). Why did that happen, were political agencies involved, and what have been the effects? I can guess that the players and the effects haven't been something the campaign wants to talk about, hence the enthusiasm with which people are using one potentially ridiculous assertion to avoid talking about it at all.

The facts have been available since before the debate. Decent breakdown by Reuters here, including repudiation of the claim that pets are being abused or eaten.


That's a pure judgement call.

Yup, agreed.

I'm sure the Harris campaign would consent to a debate on Fox, where they have no control or influence.

Given last night, I don’t think she would have much trepidation. But if team Trump wants to whine about an unfair platform, I’m sure they’ll be quick to propose it and let her decline. If we don’t see him arguing for it, that would be telling.
 
I don't think either one did a very good job, especially on details and specifics. They constantly fact checked Trump, but didn't fact check her at all, that I recall. Her 2025 shtick, Charlottesville, dictator, bloodbath. All taken out of context and all previously debunked. But not challenged by the moderators. Trump rambled and told worn out stories. His questions, from the moderators, were more pointed and he didn't stay on track. Harris lied at least as much as Trump did. She can't be believed not to return to her default position on the key issues. Even Bernie Sanders said she hasn't betrayed her 'progressive' agenda and is just doing what she needs to do to get elected. She wasted a lot of time with her word salad, rambling like Trump if you will, when she could have been giving details of her plans. She didn't take advantage of that. She was well coached, but wooden and you could see how she struggled to stay on script. Neither one gave anything like a stellar performance. Walking in cold, I would find it difficult to back either one, based on last night. She set out to get under Trump’s collar and succeeded at that, but her approach was just nasty and condescending. Calling him disgusting, a coward, a lousy business man. Trump was Trump. No suprise to anyone. However, anyone that watches him for his delivery would not have seen much difference from any one of his rallies. Harris was not Harris. She was coached and used memorized, canned answers. Same as Trump, anyone who watches her knows that wasn't her up there. We cannot forget that the democrats have a history of going into debates already knowing the questions and ground plan. Did it happen again? I don't know. Harris' policy page is pretty well just cut and pasted from Bidens page and is devoid of detail. They set a low bar and both failed to maintain it. C 'est la vie, C'est la guerre.

The biggest problem I found was ABC's attempt to push policy too much. Too much for the normal voter. 1.5 hours of policy talk left viewers cross eyed. I haven't seen numbers, but I'll bet many viewers walked away after a bit, because there was too much bafflegab. They want to know when they can get off the kraft dinner and hotdogs. When they can fill their car for less than their paycheck. When they can start going outside without fear. 1.5 hours of policy is even too much for policy wonks.

I'll touch briefly on the Taylor Swift endorsement. Then no more about it. Anyone who swoons over TS and uses her endorsement for their motivation to vote for Harris shows a very low IQ voter. If you vote, a certain way, because a billion dollar entertainer implies you should, doesn't make you a voter. It makes you a sheep. Unfortunately, you don't get an IQ test before you get your ballot. One issue voters abound. Firearms, abortion, economy or immigration. However, voting a certain way because you're gaga over an entertainers influence on you should not be the single issue that is important to you.
 
I'll touch briefly on the Taylor Swift endorsement. Then no more about it. Anyone who swoons over TS and uses her endorsement for their motivation to vote for Harris shows a very low IQ voter. If you vote, a certain way, because a billion dollar entertainer implies you should, doesn't make you a voter. It makes you a sheep. Unfortunately, you don't get an IQ test before you get your ballot. One issue voters abound. Firearms, abortion, economy or immigration. However, voting a certain way because you're gaga over an entertainers influence on you should not be the single issue that is important to you.

We find ourselves in agreement. The simple say-so of a billionaire entertainer should not be driving how someone votes, and a lot of low-info voters are unfortunately persuaded by such things. But in the end, every vote is equal.
 
The one issue American voters should be seriously considering is censorship. Everything else is secondary.
Every issue is weighted, based on the individual voter's needs and beliefs. What is a top priority for one, may not be for another.
 
Every issue is weighted, based on the individual voter's needs and beliefs. What is a top priority for one, may not be for another.
Yes, however the censorship initiatives that have gone on and continue to be supported by the present administration including Harris should be the biggest issue. Once speech is controlled. On the other hand, open borders and lack of electoral integrity (against voter ID and other bullshit) is also another gigantic issue and has the potential to fundamentally alter the US against the interests of it's citizens. Both of these issues are blessed/propagated/facilitated by the current administration. There is only one choice in that election, even if you don't like the big orange mean tweeter.
 
As a thought exercise, some consideration for minor grammatical adjustments

Anyone who swoons over TrumpS and uses her his endorsement for their motivation to vote for Him arris shows a very low IQ voter. If you vote, a certain way, because a billionaire dollar entertainer implies you should, doesn't make you a voter. It makes you a sheep. Unfortunately, you don't get an IQ test before you get your ballot.

Remarkably similar outcome, n’est-ce pas?
 
As a thought exercise, some consideration for minor grammatical adjustments



Remarkably similar outcome, n’est-ce pas?
I mused to myself about the same thing, however it's apples and oranges. Can't compare Trump and TS.
 
Well the other made a living singing about all her bad choices... so there's that too.:ROFLMAO:
Don’t get me wrong, QV, I sure wouldn’t have wanted to be an ex-BF of hers… 😬
 
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One potential impact of such celebrity endorsement could be driving registration of new voters. What jumped out at me about the Taylor Swift statement wasn’t who she endorsed - that eas a no brainer - but that she specifically pointed out that you must be registered in order to vote, and linked to info on how to do that.I think it’s fair to say that she has more reach into the 18-22 demographic than he or his side does. Is that a decisive thing in the election? God no. It’s perhaps one of those thousand cuts though. Maybe a bit deeper than some others.

She did also frame her endorsement in the context of team Trump sharing AI generated fake endorsements from her. So that did indeed come full circle as most of us previously predicted it would.
 
One potential impact of such celebrity endorsement could be driving registration of new voters. What jumped out at me about the Taylor Swift statement wasn’t who she endorsed - that eas a no brainer - but that she specifically pointed out that you must be registered in order to vote, and linked to info on how to do that.I think it’s fair to say that she has more reach into the 18-22 demographic than he or his side does. Is that a decisive thing in the election? God no. It’s perhaps one of those thousand cuts though. Maybe a bit deeper than some others.

She did also frame her endorsement in the context of team Trump sharing AI generated fake endorsements from her. So that did indeed come full circle as most of us previously predicted it would.
That, and she has the reach to a demographic that traditionally doesn’t vote in huge numbers.
 
Murdering babies.

Did Trump and his staff not adequately check the truth on murdering babies?

Did Trump hear/read what he wanted to regarding murdering babies?

Or is Trump’s mind simply fuzzy on murdering babies?

This isn’t “pedantry”. He talked about something that is an absolute falsehood. You’re trying to softball something that represents, at best, manifest incompetence on the part of his campaign and himself if we with option one; or gross moral or ethical failings on his part if we go with two or three. But I will humour you if you want to tell us which of those three you think led Trump to lie so egregiously.
Trump isn't alone misunderstanding or misrepresenting the issue. Some people are ignorant; some are misstating the situation for effect. I've already stated the truth of what is happening. "It's a lie that babies are being killed; they are being left to die" isn't a good message for swaying voters. People who have got their teeth into that one are preventing it from dropping into the memory hole; as long as it's talked about, the reality is in the public mind along with the lie.

Abortion is maybe in the bottom 3 of the top 10 issues right now. Democrats are eager to run on it, and specifically on permissive federal legislation. I read a claim that the debate spent almost 30 minutes all up on abortion - one third of the available time. The average American position is restrictions after about the first trimester, with the usual compassionate exemptions. I doubt her position helps Harris.

I admit it's kind of weird that a politician would lie about something, or state that someone has a position they either don't hold or have denied holding. I suppose now that fence has been breached, we'll see more of it.
 
As a thought exercise, some consideration for minor grammatical adjustments



Remarkably similar outcome, n’est-ce pas?
It might work if you find a third party to fill in the name, not one of the actual candidates. Candidates tend to endorse themselves with such regularity as to be almost irrelevant.
 
Abortion is maybe in the bottom 3 of the top 10 issues right now.
The 2022 midterm outcome may disagree, and with more states instituting restrictions leading to more medical professionals leaving (for example, Idaho), it will snowball into other issues like lack of healthcare.
 
One potential impact of such celebrity endorsement could be driving registration of new voters.
Frank Zappa had voter registration booths at his last 1988 US concerts, and had a long history of encouraging registration. Not many contemporary entertainers function at his level, though.
 
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