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USA Sec Def Disses RC-S Forces COIN Capability?

As I cannot see any angels walking about, I am rushing in ...

To pick up on Old Sweat’s thoughts:

• Counterinsurgency is not a static concept. I doubt that there is or can be a stable and detailed doctrine for it. Each insurgency, in each place and time is sui generis except for the fact that, by definition, it is an attempt to overthrow the established order of things. This is one of the reasons so many people caution so many others to not put too much emphasis on Britain’s victory over the Malay/Chinese insurgents around 50 years ago or America’s defeat at the hands of Vietnamese insurgents about 30 years ago: neither can provide a blueprint for other counterinsurgency campaigns.

• In addition to the common aim (overthrow the established order/replace it with something different) most (all?) insurgencies are also characterized by the society (culture) within which they occur. Thus an insurgency in intensely tribal Afghanistan or in the Balkans in likely to be quite different from one in, say, homogeneous Vietnam. Insurgencies may also be characterized (differentiated) by the role of religion – ranging from essentially irreligious insurgencies (Malaya and Vietnam) to those in which religious differences (and deeply held historic elements) constitute a key factor (Balkans (1990s), India (1940s) and Ireland (1970s/80s)). It is all too easy to use religion against foreign forces – as has been/is being done in Afghanistan and Iraq.

• Speaking of Afghanistan, the Balkans and Iraq: it can be hard to tell when an insurgency turns into a full fledged civil war - in which each side has a firm territorial/political-economic base. When that happens any foreign forces may have some difficulty figuring out which side they ought to be on and which side they really are on.

• Our American friends have done some first rate thinking, I think, on counterinsurgency, but, I fear a tendency (which exists, broadly, throughout the West) to take first rate thinking to an extra, unnecessary level and try to institutionalize it into some sort of all encompassing doctrine. My favourite example is the so called Powell Doctrine. Gen (Ret’d) Powell was, certainly, right to argue that America should, always, avoid "halfhearted warfare for half-baked reasons that the American people could not understand or support."1 To suggest, as many have done, that, pursuant to the Powell Doctrine, America must eschew peacekeeping and nation building is to use doctrine to emasculate foreign policy.


"The answer [to the uprising] lies not in pouring more troops into the jungle, but in the hearts and minds of the people."
FM Sir Gerald Templer, cited in End of Empire, Brian Lapping, 1985


I think we do have an insurgency in Kandahar – a Pashtun uprising against a Pashtun led government in Kabul. Absent an el supremo (à la Templer in Malaya circa 1953) the counterinsurgency must be the business of the Government of Afghanistan, especially the Afghan National Army and Afghan National Police. The foreign troops can, at best, support and sustain the Afghans and help create concrete achievements (see below) that will, in their turn, help “win hearts and minds.”

I would argue that “winning hearts and minds” is, still, the key to counterinsurgency. The “will of the people” is what is at stake and it is, in a manner of speaking, a beauty contest pitting the ideas, ideals and concrete achievements of the insurgents against those of the government (or established order of things). Clearly, to win, “we” (the Afghan counterinsurgents – supported and sustained by ISAF/NATO) must have and be able to communicate/demonstrate ideas and ideals and concrete achievements. This is why the 3D strategy needs to work.

The insurgents can and, traditionally, do use terrorism to “clear the field” so that they can communicate/demonstrate their ideas, ideals and achievements. For a whole host of reasons “we” (the liberal, democratic West) have decided that terrorism is not a “good” (useful or morally acceptable) tactic, so we have to “clear the field” in other ways – mostly off by driving the insurgents off the field, which is very, very hard to do if, as I believe to be the case in Afghanistan, the insurgents are locals who retreat not to the hills or across a border but, rather, into their own homes which are right on the “battlefield.”

Afghanistan Kandahar is not Malaya in the ‘50s, where ethnic Chinese were trying to subvert a popularly representative Malay government; it is more like Vietnam in the ‘60s in which an indigenous insurgency is trying to overthrow an indigenous government as part of a larger civil war.

Conclusion: let’s, all of us, Mr. Gates included, help the Afghans to develop a strategy/doctrine/system/tactic/whatever to accurately characterize this particular insurgency and then win the counterinsurgency campaign so that the Afghans may get on with running their own country in their own way – without allowing it to be used as a base from which enemies may attack us.

----------
1.  http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3209
 
I'm scratching my head at how the media handled this, too, but it might be a bit drastic having public officials (like Cabinet Ministers here) speaking to citizens ONLY through spokespeople, dontcha think?

It worked in WW II. FDR. had zippers on all his cabinets members lips and they were zippered closed tight most of the time. Unless of course what ever needed to be said went directly thought him first. No difference here, with the excpetion of modern faster than light global communications.
 
E.R.Campbell:
"Conclusion: let’s, all of us, Mr. Gates included, help the Afghans to develop a strategy/doctrine/system/tactic/whatever to accurately characterize this particular insurgency and then win the counterinsurgency campaign so that the Afghans may get on with running their own country in their own way – without allowing it to be used as a base from which enemies may attack us."

Well said.  :salute:
 
retiredgrunt45 said:
It worked in WW II. FDR. had zippers on all his cabinets members lips and they were zippered closed tight most of the time. Unless of course what ever needed to be said went directly thought him first. No difference here, with the excpetion of modern faster than light global communications.

To play the devil's advocate, there's a case to be made that this is how Canada's government is explaining our role in Afghanistan, and there's no shortage of threads and participants around here that say there may be better ways to do it.

Then again, you might be assuming that the media outlets will consistently get it in context even after the spokespersons speak their piece - a bit of a gamble, at best, I think  ;)
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080117/ts_nm/afghan_usa_gates_dc
CONCERN AMONG ALLIES

NATO allies responded to the Times interview with concern.

Britain insisted its troops had extensive counterinsurgency training, while the Netherlands summoned the U.S. ambassador for an explanation. Gates phoned his Canadian counterpart to say his quotes had been taken out of context.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=48695

Marine Deployment Supportive of NATO
By Fred W. Baker III
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Jan. 17, 2008 – The Pentagon’s decision to deploy 3,200 Marines to Afghanistan by spring was intended to reinforce the U.S. commitment there and is not intended as a criticism of the efforts of NATO allies in the region, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said today.

“This deployment of Marines does not reflect dissatisfaction about the military performance in Afghanistan of allied forces from other nations,” Gates said in a briefing at the Pentagon. “It reflects the fact that NATO and U.S. commanders believe they need more troops to take advantage of last year’s military successes, to keep pressure on the Taliban and to accelerate the training of the Afghanistan national security forces.”

Gates came out with the comments today after a firestorm of international criticism over quotes appearing this week in a Los Angeles Times article in which it appeared he singled out NATO countries for performing poorly in the country’s counterinsurgency fight.

Gates said any comments referred to NATO as an institution, stating that it still has shortcomings as it transitions from a Cold War orientation to a more global expeditionary posture. The secretary also conceded that the U.S. military and government have had a difficult time adapting to the protracted counterinsurgency campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Gates said the media reports do not reflect “reality.” He said several countries have “stepped up to the plate” and are playing a significant role in Afghanistan.


“They have rolled back the Taliban from previous strongholds in the south. They are taking the fight to the enemy in some of the most grueling conditions imaginable,” he said. “As the result of the valor and sacrifice of these allies, the Taliban has suffered significant losses and no longer holds real estate of any consequence.”

Comments in which Gates was quoted as saying that some troops were “not properly trained” and that some military forces don’t know counterinsurgency operations came from conversations with commanders in theater that specifically addressed operational mentoring and liaison teams. The teams are embedded with Afghan National Army forces and train and mentor these forces. The teams also provide a liaison between the ANA and other forces.

“We're trying to significantly increase the number of these operational mentoring and liaison teams. And my concern -- what I've heard out of the theater, and it's not just from Americans -- is that some of these groups are not fully trained,” Gates said.

Gates said he expressed to NATO that more troops could be trained at the Combat Maneuver Training Center, in Hohenfels, Germany.

“I just want to make sure that, as we ramp up the number of these … mentoring teams, that they are fully trained when they go into the theater. And that's true of every country, including the United States,” Gates said.

Gates had spoken with several allied officials this week prior to the announcement of the U.S. Marine deployment. Since then, he has spoken personally only to the Canadian defense minister, he said. A Canadian soldier was killed by a roadside bomb near Kandahar on Jan. 15.

“I wanted to make sure that they understood our respect for their contribution and how much of an impact they are making,” Gates said.

About 2,200 Marines from 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit, based at Camp Lejeune, N.C., and about 1,000 troops from 2nd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, based at the Marine Corps Air-Ground Combat Center, at Twentynine Palms, Calif., will deploy.

The Marines will serve in Afghanistan for seven months. The deployment will boost the total number of U.S. forces in Afghanistan to about 30,000.

About 1,000 of the Marines will deploy as trainers. That battalion-sized element will be tailored to the needs of the training mission there, Joint Chiefs of Staff Vice Chairman Marine Gen. James E. Cartwright said in the same briefing. Its ranks will be filled with older, more senior Marines with combat experience. The others will be deployed to the southern region of Afghanistan to help secure gains made there last year.

Transcript.
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=4121
 
Great, and so it goes
I still think his comments did not belong out in the common domain, if there was any truth to what he is saying, whether in the original form that was published in the LA times article, or in the current spin, it should have been dealt with internally.
I can't see any purpose behind it, I can only guess, maybe it was meant to be a rationalizing/justifying the Marine deployment aloud for domestic consumption (without thought of external implications?)
I don't know, but it sure doesn't look like its done the alliance any good.
 
milnewstbay said:
I'm scratching my head at how the media handled this, too, but it might be a bit drastic having public officials (like Cabinet Ministers here) speaking to citizens ONLY through spokespeople, dontcha think?

I'll be interested to see how easy it is to get a transcript of the original exchange...  ;)
Is this what you refer to?
U.S. Department of Defense
Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Public Affairs)
News Transcript
On the Web:
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=4121
Presenter: Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates and Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Marine Gen. James E. Cartwright, January 17, 2008.

 
E.R. Campbell said:
As I cannot see any angels walking about, I am rushing in ...

To pick up on Old Sweat’s thoughts:

• Counterinsurgency is not a static concept. I doubt that there is or can be a stable and detailed doctrine for it. Each insurgency, in each place and time is sui generis except for the fact that, by definition, it is an attempt to overthrow the established order of things. This is one of the reasons so many people caution so many others to not put too much emphasis on Britain’s victory over the Malay/Chinese insurgents around 50 years ago or America’s defeat at the hands of Vietnamese insurgents about 30 years ago: neither can provide a blueprint for other counterinsurgency campaigns.

• In addition to the common aim (overthrow the established order/replace it with something different) most (all?) insurgencies are also characterized by the society (culture) within which they occur. Thus an insurgency in intensely tribal Afghanistan or in the Balkans in likely to be quite different from one in, say, homogeneous Vietnam. Insurgencies may also be characterized (differentiated) by the role of religion – ranging from essentially irreligious insurgencies (Malaya and Vietnam) to those in which religious differences (and deeply held historic elements) constitute a key factor (Balkans (1990s), India (1940s) and Ireland (1970s/80s)). It is all too easy to use religion against foreign forces – as has been/is being done in Afghanistan and Iraq.

• Speaking of Afghanistan, the Balkans and Iraq: it can be hard to tell when an insurgency turns into a full fledged civil war - in which each side has a firm territorial/political-economic base. When that happens any foreign forces may have some difficulty figuring out which side they ought to be on and which side they really are on.

• Our American friends have done some first rate thinking, I think, on counterinsurgency, but, I fear a tendency (which exists, broadly, throughout the West) to take first rate thinking to an extra, unnecessary level and try to institutionalize it into some sort of all encompassing doctrine. My favourite example is the so called Powell Doctrine. Gen (Ret’d) Powell was, certainly, right to argue that America should, always, avoid "halfhearted warfare for half-baked reasons that the American people could not understand or support."1 To suggest, as many have done, that, pursuant to the Powell Doctrine, America must eschew peacekeeping and nation building is to use doctrine to emasculate foreign policy.


"The answer [to the uprising] lies not in pouring more troops into the jungle, but in the hearts and minds of the people."
FM Sir Gerald Templer, cited in End of Empire, Brian Lapping, 1985


I think we do have an insurgency in Kandahar – a Pashtun uprising against a Pashtun led government in Kabul. Absent an el supremo (à la Templer in Malaya circa 1953) the counterinsurgency must be the business of the Government of Afghanistan, especially the Afghan National Army and Afghan National Police. The foreign troops can, at best, support and sustain the Afghans and help create concrete achievements (see below) that will, in their turn, help “win hearts and minds.”

I would argue that “winning hearts and minds” is, still, the key to counterinsurgency. The “will of the people” is what is at stake and it is, in a manner of speaking, a beauty contest pitting the ideas, ideals and concrete achievements of the insurgents against those of the government (or established order of things). Clearly, to win, “we” (the Afghan counterinsurgents – supported and sustained by ISAF/NATO) must have and be able to communicate/demonstrate ideas and ideals and concrete achievements. This is why the 3D strategy needs to work.

The insurgents can and, traditionally, do use terrorism to “clear the field” so that they can communicate/demonstrate their ideas, ideals and achievements. For a whole host of reasons “we” (the liberal, democratic West) have decided that terrorism is not a “good” (useful or morally acceptable) tactic, so we have to “clear the field” in other ways – mostly off by driving the insurgents off the field, which is very, very hard to do if, as I believe to be the case in Afghanistan, the insurgents are locals who retreat not to the hills or across a border but, rather, into their own homes which are right on the “battlefield.”

Afghanistan Kandahar is not Malaya in the ‘50s, where ethnic Chinese were trying to subvert a popularly representative Malay government; it is more like Vietnam in the ‘60s in which an indigenous insurgency is trying to overthrow an indigenous government as part of a larger civil war.

Conclusion: let’s, all of us, Mr. Gates included, help the Afghans to develop a strategy/doctrine/system/tactic/whatever to accurately characterize this particular insurgency and then win the counterinsurgency campaign so that the Afghans may get on with running their own country in their own way – without allowing it to be used as a base from which enemies may attack us.

----------
1.   http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3209
On this I am not going to disagree re the concept of doctrine. As you say it is not fixed in concrete on how to do it. Each situation is different. But there are some underlying principles that do not alter. Again principles are not concrete, ie you must follow to the letter.
The US have unfortunately fallen into the ‘Fulda Gap mentality’ for quite some time and their so called COIN doctrine via FMI 3-07-22 Counterinsurgency Operations, 1 October 2004, Expires 1 October 2006was a good example of such mentality.  This was replaced by their current doctrine as per FM 3-24 Counterinsurgency Dec 2006.
Though this is a doctrine it is somewhat large and highly detailed. It also comes with a “reader”, collection of related articles referred to in the FM.
To me this just seems like a blue print for problems as anything too detailed will become “The Book” and must be followed like a rule.

They are worth reading to understand the US mind…

In passing I have read many US FMs and compared them to my Aust equivalent ones. Most US FM are very detailed and seem to treat people as if they need full direction to do what is covered in that FM. I am not sure if this is a dumbing down process or well your choice of words here
 
tdr_aust said:
Is this what you refer to?
U.S. Department of Defense
Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Public Affairs)
News Transcript
On the Web:
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=4121
Presenter: Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates and Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Marine Gen. James E. Cartwright, January 17, 2008.

The transcript I'm talking about is the one of the interview between the LA Times reporter and the Sec Def - apparently took place on a plane from AFG on 7 Jan 08.  Since it's not posted at the Pentagon's web page, it's possible that the Pentagon folks don't have their own transcript available, meaning we have to take the reporter at face value re:  his summary of what was said (unless he's willing to share a transcript of his recording of the exchange).
 
We have had a number of cases where the media has fabricated news to cause the administration problems. Its clear that Gates was taken out of context. I suspect that the reporter wont have access to the SecDef in the future.
 
tomahawk6 said:
I suspect that the reporter wont have access to the SecDef in the future.

...or at least not without someone ELSE recording the interview.  ;)
 
Further to tdr_aust's points - I have used before, and some folks may be tired of it, this analogy. But I still strongly believe it has merit.

The Brits, and Aussies, play Rugby.  The Americans play American Rules Football.

I am attaching 4 photos.  They are of the University of Alabama's Crimson Tide teams of 1892 and 2002, the Cambridge University side of 1874 and of 2002.


A hundred years ago Alabama and Cambridge could have played on the same pitch with some minor adjustments in rules.  Today Chalk and Cheddar have more in common.  The Cambridge team is recognizable to their forebears, if slightly larger.  The Alabama side carries more players than all the  "First Fifteens" of all the schools in Britain 100 years ago.

And each one of those is chosen and optimised and trained and equipped and tasked for a single clearly defined short term goal by the Coach with aid of his staff (another 2 "Fifteens" worth).


Byzantium, that inherited Mediterranean dominance from the Romans, was well known for taking the relatively simple lines of the Romans (a matter of debate) and piling on useless excresences until the original form and purpose of the edifice was lost in great piles of gilt.

It's hard to remember that in both Rugby and American Football the object in both games is the same: to advance the ball over the enemy's goal lines as many times as possible on roughly equivalent fields and roughly equivalent intervals.
 
What shocks me , is how the CON government is so afraid to condem the Americans for making such insulting statements against Canadian soldiers.
I mean we all know Harper will do anything to please Bush, but this is going too far.
But I am not surprised by the Americans thinking Canadian soldiers are not up to the job.
Remember when an American pilot disobeyed orders TWICE and blew away 4 Canadian soldiers.
Remember how Bush did not even make a public statement, did not even apologize, until he came to Halifax I think it was and someone brought it up
Remember when Bush thanked everyone, including Mexico for being such supportive allies but didnt even mention Canada.
But yet here we see the right wingers refusing to criticize a man who is responsible for 4000 American soldiers dieing and 77 Canadian soldiers
Very sad
 
The SecDef has denied making the disparging comments attributed to him saying he was taken out of context. If he didnt think the Canadians were capable would he permit a Marine MEU to be placed under the command of a Canadian GO ?
 
tweetypie said:
What shocks me , is how the CON government is so afraid to condem the Americans for making such insulting statements against Canadian soldiers....

- Which insulting statements are you refering to?  Please provide and cite sources.
 
Canadian Defense Minister Peter MacKay on Wednesday played down criticism of the capabilities of NATO troops in Afghanistan by US Defense Secretary Robert Gates, saying Gates told him the remarks were reported out of context.

Noting that Gates praised Canada's military performance just the day before, MacKay said Gates had just told him by telephone that comments published in the Los Angeles Times that most NATO forces were ill-trained to fight insurgencies were "taken out of context."

"They were comments made of a general nature about the need to focus training of NATO and the alliance on counter insurgency," MacKay said of Gates' explanation.

"He made similar comments, quite frankly, when we were in Scotland at the RC south (the southern Afghanistan regional command) defense ministers conference talking about the need to specifically gear training of the NATO alliance towards counter-insurgency," MacKay said.

"And so his comments were certainly not directed at Canada."

who then were his comments directed at? Its Canada, Britain, and the Netherlands who are shouldering combat roles in Afghanistan? Sure he said this, and it was suddenly taken out of context when bells went off, that he was actually insulting his Allies. What a dufus. Interesting that people are buying into the taken out of context excuse here, but not when Dion says he was also taken out of context. I guess its all in who is doing the talking.. !!!!!! ::)
 
tweetypie said:
What shocks me , is how the CON government is so afraid to condem the Americans for making such insulting statements against Canadian soldiers.
I mean we all know Harper will do anything to please Bush, but this is going too far.
But I am not surprised by the Americans thinking Canadian soldiers are not up to the job.
Remember when an American pilot disobeyed orders TWICE and blew away 4 Canadian soldiers.
Remember how Bush did not even make a public statement, did not even apologize, until he came to Halifax I think it was and someone brought it up
Remember when Bush thanked everyone, including Mexico for being such supportive allies but didnt even mention Canada.
But yet here we see the right wingers refusing to criticize a man who is responsible for 4000 American soldiers dieing and 77 Canadian soldiers
Very sad

Meds acting up again?  ::)
 
tweetypie said:
But yet here we see the right wingers refusing to criticize a man who is responsible for 4000 American soldiers dieing and 77 Canadian soldiers
Very sad

Whats sad is that you throw around our most noble serving members deaths as if they were just a tool for you to criticize, and I won't stand for it.
Welcome to the warning system..........
 
sgf said:
Interesting that people are buying into the taken out of context excuse here,

Even more interesting  is that, after he was confronted with his insulting statements, he pulled the old, "My comments were taken out of context " line

Curious that, the British and Dutch governments were furious about what Gates had to say about their soldiers, ( and rightfully so) but yet the Canadas NEW government doing its best not to irritate the Americans, allow him to get away with .
Curious that Canadian soldiers  (SOME)have no problem with Gate's comments


"I'm worried we'’re deploying (military advisers) that are not properly trained and I'm worried we have some military forces that don’t know how to do counter-insurgency operations," Gates told the Los Angeles Times.

He specifically compared the troubles of NATO forces in the south — the turf of Canadian, British and Dutch troops — with progress made by American troops in the eastern part of Afghanistan.

An L.A. Times article quotes U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates expressing doubts about NATO countries that have sent large numbers of combat troops to fight in the south.


When asked if that included Canada, he went on to say: "Including the United States and including Canada.


Whats sad is that you throw around our most noble serving members deaths as if they were just a tool for you to criticize, and I won't stand for it.

What is sad is that the day after yet another Canadian soldier died for America, so many people are defending what this MAN? said

:-\

 
tweetypie said:
What is sad is that the day after yet another Canadian soldier died for America, so many people are defending what this MAN? said

...and another step up the ladder for you. Going for the whole shebang in one night?
 
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