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USA Sec Def Disses RC-S Forces COIN Capability?

tweetypie said:
Well yea, we do, because the  Penthouse  doesnt disagree with what was reported as to what he said either.

Well no, we don't  - we know what the L.A. Times reporter wrote, and we know what he quoted, but we don't know all that was said (including the questions).  We do have transcripts available for at least one subsequent interview, which we can compare to stories, but not of the first one that started the ball rolling.
 
tweetypie said:
Well yea, we do, because the  Penthouse  doesnt disagree with what was reported as to what he said either.
As I posted earlier

But then again, with all the lies that come out of the Whitehouse since GW moved in, who knows what is the truth any more

:P

I have to remember to buy alot shares of Alcoa on Tuesday. :)
 
tweetypie said:
Well yea, we do, because the  Penthouse  doesnt disagree with what was reported as to what he said either.

I prefer to look at the pictures, and read the letters.  

tweetypie said:
But then again, with all the lies that come out of the Whitehouse since GW moved in, who knows what is the truth any more


And we are supposed to take everything you say as Gospel too?

:P

We are working on a lot of speculation here.  Wackos are up in arms looking for a Witchhunt.  Calmer minds are waiting for proof.  Which one shall we call you?

 
tomahawk6 said:
I have to remember to buy alot shares of Alcoa on Tuesday. :)

My first out loud laugh of the day - thanks LOADS!  :rofl:
 
Whats really funny is the stooge we are arguing with has not, nor will ever, set foot in Afghanistan and certainly not to fight for those whom want peace, democracy and free will and require our help while trying to achieve it.

Hey Tweets,
I'm curious whether you are racist, sexist or a combo of both?
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Whats really funny is the stooge we are arguing with has not, nor will ever, set foot in Afghanistan and certainly not to fight for those whom want peace, democracy and free will and require our help while trying to achieve it.

Hey Tweets,
I'm curious whether you are racist, sexist or a combo of both?

Bruce, you've GOTTA come outta your shell, you wallflower you - don't hold back, tell us what you think  ;D
 
Mr. Gates’ comments (misquoted or not) have struck a nerve and my old, old boss (MGen (Ret’d) Terry Liston (formerly R22eR)) has weighed in with this comment, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080122.wcogates22/BNStory/specialComment/home
Commentary

Was Mr. Gates badly briefed? Or does he simply not understand?
No other contingent, particularly the Americans, has demonstrated greater mastery of dealing with insurgents.

TERRY LISTON

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
January 22, 2008 at 6:42 AM EST

The U.S. Secretary of Defence, Robert Gates, shocked the Western world last week, charging that the NATO troops deployed in the south of Afghanistan are, in effect, unskilled cowards who rely on air strikes that cause civilian deaths and hide in their own protected bases in order to avoid casualties. He also charged that they failed to connect with the Afghan security forces. He loudly applauded, in contrast, the U.S. contingent in the eastern provinces.

Whether we support the Afghan mission or not, we must step back and ask: Is that us? Canadians know their soldiers were given the one area of Afghanistan that no one else wants. Even the Americans were relieved to get out, going to the relative safety of the eastern provinces. Kandahar, the ancestral home of the Taliban, was the first city to be captured when the Taliban took power, and the last to fall when they were removed from power in 2001. The city and the surrounding provinces remained quiet, for a time, only because the U.S. focus on the Iraq invasion of 2003 left the south of Afghanistan under the control of the Taliban, war lords and drug dealers.

Consequently, the first Canadian battle groups in Kandahar, based on the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry and the Royal Canadian Regiment, had to fight a Korean-style conventional campaign to break the huge Taliban force that, under previous (U.S.) management, had brazenly built Soviet-style fighting positions, almost encircling the city of Kandahar.

Now, the Canadian contingent is doing what NATO is supposed to do - systematically eliminating the insurgency and ensuring the viability of the Afghan state. It is based on the Vandoos, with supporting elements from the other units of Quebec's 5th brigade. It is in the forefront of professional, effective counter-insurgency operations. No other contingent, particularly the Americans, has demonstrated greater mastery of the difficult art of dealing with insurgents in a failed state.

The Vandoo battle group lives in the field in rudimentary forward bases far from the Tim Hortons at Kandahar airfield. In the past five months, it has systematically secured and expanded the area under real Afghan control, carrying out more than 20 company-level operations, and more than 10 at full battalion-level. It has created a string of secure and effective Afghan police stations in the villages it has cleared, protected by both Afghan and Canadian soldiers. These police stations will not be overrun by returning insurgents as in the past. Every day - and night - Canada's infantry platoons patrol on foot through the villages, and its armoured reconnaissance vehicles patrol the less-populated areas. Since arriving in Kandahar, 74 Canadians have died and several hundred have been wounded. To question the commitment and courage of these young soldiers was indeed callous on the part of Mr. Gates.

In particular, contrary to Mr. Gates's accusations, Canadians don't rely on air strikes. Only the senior commanders of the Canadian task force authorize the use of indirect fire. Most often, the deciding criteria is the risk of collateral damage. Consequently, civilian damage and losses have been extremely limited. In the difficult operations carried out by the Vandoo battle group in the Arghandab district in October and November, Afghan President Hamid Karzai personally complimented the Canadian contingent for its success in battle while avoiding civilian damage.

In contrast, it is astonishing that Mr. Gates is unaware of Mr. Karzai's public anger at the hundreds of American-inflicted civilian deaths and damage, using the concepts promoted by Mr. Gates's predecessor. Former defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld detested the idea of "nation-building" and urged the use of clandestine special forces to direct massive air strikes on the "baddies" as a replacement for military boots on the ground. Americans now recognize this approach was a counterproductive failure in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The new U.S. Counterinsurgency Doctrine, promoted by visionaries such as General David Petraeus, is returning to the approach followed by Commonwealth armies and so well applied by Canada's soldiers.

No other contingent has reached the level of Afghan integration seen in the Canadian sector. It is intimately welded to the heads of each district, the provincial governor, chiefs of police and village elders. Every operation is conducted in full collaboration with the Afghan Army and the Afghan police, from the earliest planning phase right through to execution. In the past five months, the team that mentors the allied Afghan Security Forces was doubled to more than 100. The Canadians and the Afghans fight side by side.

One of the Canadians' most successful innovations was the attachment of soldiers from the Vandoo battle group as well as military police, to work, eat and sleep with Afghan police in their forward village police stations. They not only help them act professionally, but they ensure that they are fed and paid by their shaky Afghan chain of command.

This integration has led the Afghan local population to develop a degree of respect and confidence in the Afghan state apparatus that had not been seen up to this point in former Taliban areas.

One could also emphasize the development projects that accompany every Canadian military operation. However, Mr. Gates did not seem to be interested in this aspect. It is clear that Mr. Gates does not know what is happening in the south of Afghanistan. Is it possible his Pentagon briefers gave him this distorted view of reality? Or did he simply not understand? In either case, it is not reassuring for those countries that have responded to U.S. leadership.

Terry Liston is a retired major-general and former chief of planning and operations of the Canadian Armed Forces

Amongst his other duties, Terry Liston was, for a couple of years, in the ‘80s, the Director General of Public Affairs so he understands how to frame his ideas so that the media will pick up. He was, also, just a very few years ago, Colonel of the Regiment of the R22eR, so I’m sure this comment is, in some part, written for the soldiers of that regiment, telling them that M. Gates is full of merdre.

I suspect he’s speaking for a large number of senior officers; I can imagine that there was some pretty strong comment around the bar of the Ottawa Army Officers’ Mess last week along the line of Liston’s ”No other contingent, particularly the Americans, has demonstrated greater mastery of dealing with insurgents.”

 
E.R. Campbell said:
Amongst his other duties, Terry Liston was, for a couple of years, in the ‘80s, the Director General of Public Affairs so he understands how to frame his ideas so that the media will pick up.

Good piece - I'm intrigued that, given his experience, he didn't even mention the potential that the SecDef may have been quoted out of context.  Or maybe it's just me having had a bad day @ work  ;)

BTW, zero responses to repeated e-mails to USA PAffOs asking if there's a transcript lying about of the original interview, so it's still "what the reporter SAID he said".
 
Teeps74 said:
Well, what Gates said or did not say bothers me not... I have very little time for anyone in that administration, and frankly, if he does not like what we are doing, he can go cry more to the press...

We are doing a fantastic job in Kandahar (the home and birth place of the Taliban). For equivalency terms, it would be like holding Washington DC. It is a symbol, one which the Taliban wants and needs to retake very badly... And despite their efforts, we are moving ahead with development in Kandahar City (KC) and province.

While I was there, many an IED strike was prevented in KC thanks to the local population stepping in and reporting IED teams. What does the fact, that the locals are reporting IEDs to us and the local ANP tell me? It tells me that we are winning in Kandahar Province. Parents like the fact that they can name their children before five now. They like sending their kids to school. They like that we are trying, in conjunction with the Afghan people, to rebuild their country to at least the standard they enjoyed prior to the Soviet invasion.

The fact that the locals like all of this, puts the Taliban in a very bad position, hence the reason why violence has increased... The population of Kandahar province is starting to trust Kabul, the ANA (and to lesser extent ANP) and ISAF... This trust is ruinous to the Taliban on their home turf. It always gets worse before getting better...

And now it is getting better.

BZ
 
Just spotted this one in the International Herald Tribune, by another Canadian - he doesn't seem to be buying the statements reportedly made by Gates to our Def Min after the LA Times article.  Shared with the usual disclaimer.....

Collateral damage
George Petrolekas, International Herald Tribune, 22 Jan 08
Article link

MONTREAL - Robert Gates, the U.S. defense secretary, hit a nerve last week when he told the Los Angeles Times that NATO forces in Southern Afghanistan were untrained in counterinsurgency, reliant only on Cold War doctrine and firepower and scorned cooperation with the Afghan National Army.

Within hours, the Pentagon beat a hasty retreat, explaining that Gates really meant to galvanize NATO into providing more troops to the embattled south. Despite Gates's heartfelt apologies to the nations concerned, only the Taliban have emerged unscathed from the secretary's impolitic comments.

What distressed many of America's NATO allies was that his verbal bombshells perpetuate the American myth that only the U.S. armed forces are capable of combining aggressive action and cultural sensitivity in the careful measure necessary to defeat an insurgency.

It is no wonder that America's closest allies took umbrage, given that they have plenty of peacemaking experience and are thus very much in tune with the cultural nuances so necessary to win the war the West is waging in Afghanistan.

Many American officers who passed their military adolescence in training to fight in the Fulda Gap - the strategic area in the Cold War era where the Soviets would theoretically invade West Germany - still believe that the U.S. Army is not meant for protracted low-level conflict or nation-building.

The Powell doctrine, so favored by many U.S. officers, of applying overwhelmingly superior force followed by rapid withdrawal from the field, was highly successful in America's first Gulf war but does not apply to the current situations in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The war in Iraq has awakened military soldier-scholars to the fact that America must wage a completely different type of war - fought among the people, generational in scope - where firepower and maneuver must also include development of civil society and security through close contact with the population. As the United States discovered that the world had changed, so too did her NATO allies. It is disingenuous to imply anything else.

In 2005, while briefing a small group of senior U.S. generals directly involved with Afghanistan, I was surprised by their perception that Canadian troops under American command would "restrict their battlespace," a term that reflected a lack of U.S. confidence in their allies.

I had to remind my American colleagues of the fistful of U.S. medals that Canadian snipers and soldiers had earned in Afghanistan supporting the United States in 2002 and a presidential unit citation awarded to Canadian Special Forces in the same conflict. It took an American colonel who had served with Canadians in 2002, calling them "the best trained soldiers he had ever seen, bar none" to dispel the perception.

Those very same Canadian soldiers have never clung to the safety of secure bases. Many have been killed by IED's or have died in fire fights, including one in which they rescued an American Special Forces contingent in Helmand Province.

For Canada, with over 10 percent of its army in Kandahar and suffering comparatively high casualties, it is disappointing that sacrifices like these could be forgotten by Canada's best friend and ally.

Perhaps Gates was not told that it is the United States that controls the training and deployment of the Afghan National Army. Since the beginning of Canada's deployment to Kandahar in January 2006, there has not been a ranking military officer or politician visiting Kabul or Washington who has not begged for Afghan National Army battalions to be made available in the South. Indeed, the mantra of the Canadian involvement in Afghanistan is to ensure that an Afghan face is in front of all we do. But we cannot cooperate alongside Afghan units that do not exist.

The most troubling of Gates's comments has nothing to do with fighting the insurgency, but with his questionable understanding of the fragile web of compromise that binds the allied participation in Afghanistan and domestic political price paid by many allied governments.

Many of the countries with NATO troops involved in Afghanistan are governed either by delicate coalitions or minority governments for whom Afghanistan is a much debated and divisive issue. The unintended collateral damage of Gate's remarks only fuels the anti-Americanism already rampant among nations whose opposition parties rally against supporting what they perceive as President George W. Bush's war.

If the insurgency has become more violent, the defense secretary might recall that the United States minimized the Taliban threat, frequently telling NATO that it comprised no more than 600 to 1,000 adherents and thus permitted a minimal presence in Southern Afghanistan.

No other force has used air power as vigorously as the United States, notwithstanding friendly fire and Afghan civilian deaths that Gates now decries. What injury the secretary's bombshells might do to the unity of the alliance remains to be seen.

George Petrolekas is a colonel in the Canadian Army, presently on unpaid leave, who from 2003 to 2007 was involved in the Afghan mission.
 
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