Utility of AOC

[SeaKingTacco]

I just threw that out there since SeaKingTacco suggested that CFITES advocates the application of a normal distribution in the assignment of grades, when in fact it's the opposite.

Ok, ok- I get it- I screwed up.  Never post without referring first to a reference.

I will now retire, reputation in tatters.  8)

 

[vonGarvin]

Ok, ok- I get it- I screwed up.  Never post without referring first to a reference.

I will now retire, reputation in tatters.  8)

If that's all it too to retire, then I should have retired LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG ago!

I was trying to make a point without being unnecessarily pedantic, but someone had to drag out the "Never Pass [up an opportunity to publicly point out] a Fault" clause.    ;D

Hey, The RCR is worse than the Jesuits!  They've had me for close to 20 years now.  How could I not?  HOW COULD I NOT? ;D


OK, to keep this OT.  AOC is good for you, but it's like that yucky medicine that has the commercials with the old dude.  "It tastes awful, but it works".  Buckmans?  Buckleys?  Something like that...

 

[dapaterson]

Hey, The RCR is worse than the Jesuits!

As a non-Catholic graduate of a Jesuit high school, I can agree with confidence.  The Jesuits have reasons for what they do, not just "It was a rock.  Therefore I painted it."

(Really OT - one of my high school teachers was martyred 8 years ago last Saturday)

OK, to keep this OT.  AOC is good for you, but it's like that yucky medicine that has the commercials with the old dude.  "It tastes awful, but it works".  Buckmans?  Buckleys?  Something like that...

But is it good enough?  Can it be made better?  Do we need to temper expectations about the ability of the system to produce quality graduates as we seem to want quantity over quality?  Is a bottom third evaluation synonymous with a posting to one of the dot COMs (insert evil grin here)?  To paraphrase some of the great modern philosophers, from AOC do we get what we want, but not what we need?

 

[exgunnertdo]

Hey, no worries, SeaKingTacco!

TDOs must defend CFITES, it's part of our cult!  ;D

I don't get too many opportunities to talk about my job on these boards!

 

[armyvern]

I was led to believe that there is sufficient coverage of these areas on ILQ/ALQ.  At least my RSM seemed to be struggling with the estimate and OPP processes.

Damn, should have tasked him to CFSAL to re-write the Phase IV ... he'd have gotten lots of practise. 

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I still cringe when I remember a bunch of us belting out Bohemian Rhapsody at the Fort Hood O club.  Could any of us carry a tune in a bucket?

Hard to believe they posted me to Washington for a year, huh?  Hopefully the stories will respect our new hardened border....

Mind you, we needed to let loose.  You and I did Staff College back when it mattered.  "Youts" today just fill in the back of a pack of matches at Fort Frontenac and automatically get a plsc.... >

 

[54/102 CEF]

Can anyone at AOC Central post the requirement for Day 1 of Tutorial III - the part time P PRES Staff seem to be offline - on leave - or likely setting traps for us on 11 July

Maybe send it out via the Course Coord lady via her email list she just sent for the personal history form.

 

[Michael OLeary]

The Jesuits have reasons for what they do, not just "It was a rock.  Therefore I painted it."

Actually, it's "It was a rock. It had been painted before.  I knew not why it was painted before, only that the Regiment desired it so, therefore, I painted it again."

You and I did Staff College back when it mattered.  "Youts" today just fill in the back of a pack of matches at Fort Frontenac and automatically get a plsc.... >

Ah, but there are those humble few who did the two-part disaster in transition.  26 weeks in two courses, all OPP, no field trip to Europe.  The hardest won p.l.s.c you can imagine.

 

[vonGarvin]

Ah, but there are those humble few who did the two-part disaster in transition.  26 weeks in two courses, all OPP, no field trip to Europe.  The hardest won p.l.s.c you can imagine.

And of course there are those of us who did the course during the current war.  There were cutbacks, naturally: no field trips AND they even cut the mints on the pillows!  MINTS ON THE PILLOWS!  I know there's a war on, but we can still be civil, no?  It was pure hell!!!!

 

[Michael OLeary]

And of course there are those of us who did the course during the current war.  There were cutbacks, naturally: no field trips AND they even cut the mints on the pillows!  MINTS ON THE PILLOWS!  I know there's a war on, but we can still be civil, no?  It was pure hell!!!!

Appalling. You have my sympathy.  The only thing that set the place apart from Gitmo was the mints on the pillow.  Well, that and the fact that the sense of being waterboarded in DIs was only metaphorical.

 

[Journeyman]

"Youts" today just fill in the back of a pack of matches at Fort Frontenac and automatically get a plsc.... >

What's a "pack of matches" Grandpa? 
Oh ri-iiight...I heard about something like that back before non-recyclable, disposable lighters.

Next you'll try to tell us that some of them had a drawing of Bambi (not the stripper), and if you copied it, you could have the talent to send them money for an art course. 

 

[George Wallace]

What's a "pack of matches" Grandpa? 

Those are the little one page notebooks with the funny sticks that you find in the Ration Packs.    :camo:

 

[daftandbarmy]

I do believe that the process pre-dates the Cold War, and even predates Germany as a state.  In fact, one could argue that the state of Germany owes its existance to the processes taught on AOC.

I've got no argu8ment with the practicality of teaching people OPP. But there just may be an argument there in support of revisiting a model of training methodology developed by von Moltke to teach German officers how to best use the train system to beat the French in 1871...

 

[Michael OLeary]

Those are the little one page notebooks with the funny sticks that you find in the Ration Packs.    :camo:

The ones with the built-in self-destruction mechanism in case of imminent capture.    :camo:

 

[TangoTwoNiner]

Mike,

As a recent graduate of AOC (100 anniversary class 2008), I think the the ulitlity of the course is more than relevent as the demand for AOC qual Captains on expeditionary ops is high (or so I've been told). And quit bragging that you won (earned more like it) the Minerva! We know already!

And if you hadn't figured out who I am, just wait until I put the Cougar back in front of the Mess so you have something to look at when eating breakfast!

JFH

 

[McG]

As a recent graduate of AOC, I think the the ulitlity of the course is more than relevent

I think (despite the title of the thread) the question is less about determining if AOC has any utility to the Army & CF, and it is more about the effectiveness of AOC in meeting our needs.  Is the AOC (as it is run now) achieving its full potential, or could the Army be getting a better product (junior to intermediate staff officers) with changes to the programme?

 

[Michael OLeary]

And if you hadn't figured out who I am, just wait until I put the Cougar back in front of the Mess so you have something to look at when eating breakfast!

JFH

And I told you what I would do if I got tired of looking at it.    ;D

 

[TangoTwoNiner]

LOL! You would to wouldn't you!

I'll have plenty of time to scheme when you're in Pet pepper-potting in the sand for two weeks!

 

[TangoTwoNiner]

I think (despite the title of the thread) the question is less about determining if AOC has any utility to the Army & CF, and it is more about the effectiveness of AOC in meeting our needs.  Is the AOC (as it is run now) achieving its full potential, or could the Army be getting a better product (junior to intermediate staff officers) with changes to the programme?

In order to change the curriculum it takes time - at least a year and I know the DS try and insert more "current" material when they can, but if they do it's at the expense of something else. The idea behind the course is to not make anyone a shake-n-bake expert, but to learn a set of tools that can be applied to almost any military problem and be able to solve it logically and then communicate that COA to someone else. It's the same as becoming an expert in war fighting, which can then be used as a platform for OOTW.

Without blowing my own horn, I thought I was a pretty good staff wiener before I started and I quickly realized that there was a lot that I didn't know and it really opened my eyes and made me a better officer. Way better. So yeah, I think the CF gets some good bang for the buck of that course. My 2 cents...

 

[McG]

In order to change the curriculum it takes time - at least a year and I know the DS try and insert more "current" material when they can, but if they do it's at the expense of something else. The idea behind the course is to not make anyone a shake-n-bake expert, but to learn a set of tools that can be applied to almost any military problem and be able to solve it logically and then communicate that COA to someone else. It's the same as becoming an expert in war fighting, which can then be used as a platform for OOTW.

Without blowing my own horn, I thought I was a pretty good staff wiener before I started and I quickly realized that there was a lot that I didn't know and it really opened my eyes and made me a better officer. Way better. So yeah, I think the CF gets some good bang for the buck of that course. My 2 cents...

Well, let's just say I was somewhat more underwhelmed than you.
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/87189/post-850543.html#msg850543