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VAC Return to Lifetime Pensions Discussion

doomed_78 said:
Do you think theres anyway that VAC could change their minds and allow for lump sum payments? I was told on the phone by VAC a few weeks that I could choose lump sum and now in reading that it is only monthly. I'm at a loss for words..

I'm wondering as a solution for those receiving under $50 or even under $100 a month if VAC would pay that amount either every 6 months or once a year as a lump? So if you got $10 a month VAC could just give you $120 at the beginning of the year.

They can't provide lump sums to those that already got a lump sum. Why? Because then they would have to techincaly raise the lump sum rates for everyone. VAC is giving you the option that you DIDN'T have before PFL and paying the difference to be fair.

The option is for claims going forward April 1.
 
Brihard said:
Part of the history behind the 2006 New Veterans Charter lump sum disability awards is that a lot of claims were still coming in for older retired veterans for whom a modest monthly pension would be meaningless. Guys who 'made t through' a career (or who served briefly during the war then got out) and years down the road ad things like hearing loss, etc that they finally found out they could claim. A lump sum suited many of these folks much more. and that's quite reasonable. A lump sum is going to better for a lot of people in a lot of cases. Thsoe who are older, those who are financially disciplined, those for whom writing off a major debt would be financially advantageous in saved interest, etc. The Disability Award is compensation for pain and suffering. It's 'Sorry you're hurt / sick / broken. In recognition of the fact that your life as more suck than it would have, here's money". It's not meant to be economic compensation for lost wages- that's where the other stuff (ELB, CIA, CIA-S) came in. Those in turn were to work in conjunction with rehabilitation programs to try to get people back into some sort of meaningful employment, with ELB intended to bridge some of the income gap between pre-injury and post-injury. In principle, not a terrible system. The Pension Act was 'shut up, take your money each month, go away and ensure someone tells us when you die'. It would provide a modest income scaled to severity of disability. If you could still work, great! If you couldn't, you wouldn't starve to death. This shfited to a new system that is somewhat tested against your ability to still have meaningful work.

Then basically the same time all of that happens, oh crap, we're back in a real scrap where a lot of young men and women are getting badly banged up. Immediately this new system got tested in basically every imaginable configuration of variables, and it was found lacking. ELB has a high threshold to access. The system was overwhelmed with claims and bogged down. The disability award lump sum gave massive sums of cash to guys and girls who were in possibly the worst possible circumstances to handle a large amount of money- and when it's gone, it's gone. So now we have permanently and severely disabled Canadians in their 20s and 30s. People in the prim of their lives. And the system in a lot of cases was *not* helping them. Some of it was due to the sheer bureaucratic stubborness that pervades government departments. Benefits over and over were not given the benefit of the doubt on disabilities; inappropriate standards were applied. Veterans were shoehorned into certain vocational paths that failed to take into account their own talents and realistic, reasonable aspirations. There was financial inequity with the old pension act based on accessing ELB or how it's calculated.

The approach to that over the next decade was layer after layer of bandaids. Increased DAs. ELB increased to 90% pre-release with the SISIP top up (SISIP is another stupid beast). Critical Injury Benefit. It just became more and more unwieldy and more and more stupid results crept in. The principle of separating economic and non-economic compensation is sound. A person who can still work *should* be incentivized to work. The $20k in non-clawed-back income for ELB is a good step in that direction. 90% pre-release income ELB is a good benefit if it's applied fairly and consistently.

As they stumbled and tripped in the right direction, it became clear the system needed a ground up re-write. There were too many overlapping and offsetting benefits and programs. Hence what's coming into place now.

A lot of guys are making some loud noises about some pretty small monthly checks they're going to be getting... I don't really buy that one. They already got their disability award payout. If buddy's getting a few hundred a month it's going to be on top of probably a few hundred thousand already received, plus whatever other benefits and services they've had access to. It's not like the dude who lost a leg overseas has never been treated or compensated and now they get three thousand bucks a year and have a nice life. Whatever people are now additionally getting has to be on top of what they already got.

The 'Pension for life' is basically the disability award amortized over an expected life span. People can still take the lump sum, or they can get that monthly amount for Pain and Suffering- up $1150 in raw form, potentially another $1500 a month if they face 'barriers to re-establishment', which by my reading also means it's stacking on top of the Income Replacement Benefit that is the same as ELB. So potentially a couple thousand tax free a month on top of 90% income replacement with potentially 20% of additional growth to same, all indexed to inflation. That's not bad at all. For people receiving elsser amounts for lesser injuries, presumably they can still work and there are a suite of programs to help them with that.

The loudest voices in favour of a lifetime pension basically wanted to economic and non-economic losses combined back into one benefit that would not distinguish between if someone could still earn a living or not, and wouldn't incentivize them to if they could. For a host of reasons that's bad- having some sort of meaningful employment has a great many advantages for someone's mental health and recovery. I think someone who by virtue of their disability *cannot* work *should* receive more economic compensation for that- the very nature of the term 'compensation' is that you're making up for something lost or taken away, which in that case is income. If they can still work a meaningful job they should reasonably be expected to, so long as the pain and suffering is separately recognized and compensated, which it is. That's an inherently fair notion. A restoration of the old Pension Act approach just isn't going to happen. That's been made abundantly clear, and at this point it's just tilting at windmills to think it may still be.

Most of the remaining mess is in the bridging of the two systems. Someone newly injured and coming entirely under the new system as of April will, I think, have access to a pretty reasonable suite of benefits, compensation, and services to help them to carry on with whatever their life will look like after service. It's a hell of a lot better than pre-2006 'take your money and PFO'. The key to success will be in ensuring that the benefit of the doubt is respected in favour of the veteran, that the benefits are granted consistently and compassionately, and that the barriers to reestablishment are interpreted and applied fairly and with an understanding to the impacts that serious disability truly has on a life. This is not to say that the system is perfect or ideal, however what will be in place as of April I think far better achieves the intent of the NVC as initially envisioned prior to implementation in 2006. It took them twelve years and a war to break the system in, torture test it, and fix it.

Now if they could just destroy SISIP for service related disability...
l was medically released 2 decades ago and disappeared, l resurfaced to realize I was entitled to all manner of benefits, IMO, the offering of lump sums is what jammed the VAC system, many soldiers had busted parts that they ignored, as I find those ultimately suffering mostly do so in silence, but when people realized that a 10% injury was worth $36000 on the spot versus say $360 a month forever, many more decided to bring forward the injuries they sustained over their careers, as it seemed more worth their while. And every single one is entitled to that money if a dr. Says they are, but there was definitely a huge influx of claims once vets New there were lumps sums available for this or that. you mentioned “ barriers “ as offering up to $1500, that is true but it will more likely $500, the lowest sum, though still tax free, not every vet qualifies, and at the highest level, you have to be almost a vegetable. Another situation clogging the wheels of vac, and again rightfully so, are the applications for DEC, currently a successful applicant can expect to receive their Earnings Loss Benefits TIL 65 on that plan...and in addition be almost instantly granted what is called Career Impact Allowance Suppliment, which adds another approx. $1200 a month. But after April 1, DEC/CIAS are not part of the Liberals new PFL. This has resulted in VAC being inundated with DEC applications because vets see it as a crap shoot, might as well apply for it, it’s gone in a few months anyway. And yet, those who truly might need it the most, those that are irrevocably F-ed up, will no longer see that money. They say it can’t buy happiness, but let’s face it, $ does buy Quality of Life, for whatever time those vets have left.just saying.
 
Teager said:
I'm wondering as a solution for those receiving under $50 or even under $100 a month if VAC would pay that amount either every 6 months or once a year as a lump? So if you got $10 a month VAC could just give you $120 at the beginning of the year.

They can't provide lump sums to those that already got a lump sum. Why? Because then they would have to techincaly raise the lump sum rates for everyone. VAC is giving you the option that you DIDN'T have before PFL and paying the difference to be fair.

The option is for claims going forward April 1.

I agree, under a certain limit something should have been done. It just makes sense from an efficiency stand point. Sending someone 5 dollars a month for 30 years is going to cost a lot of money. Perhaps an option could have been giving a lump sum option at say 70% of the projected value. if the member accepts the 70% you have saved yourself the discounted percentage and the requirement to administer that small payment.
 
According to VAC, the last paragraph on the first page indicates if you are receiving a monthly amount or not. Mine says "we estimate you could receive an additional monthly amount..." To mean, "could" means I might, I might not. Very ambiguous. But VAC themselves did say that paragraph means I am.

As for lump sum, that is a no-go if you have already received a disability award. Monthly amounts only.
 
cctchevy18 said:
The *educated* was an emphasis of the impact of the *, and you didn’t seem to like it and that’s the point

It didn't bother me in the least in its own right. I was just curious if given what you had just said, you were intentionally coming across a way that it seems you weren't, that's all. No harm, no foul.

Rifleman62 said:
I disagree with you Brihard. You are very knowledgeable, although you continue to make excuses for VAC, and to me you are coming across as a dyed in the wool bureaucrat 

The VAC crap show is going to continue for years, as it has been going on for years, unless something is quickly done.  Are the VAC workers concerned that once they get back to VAC's standard of service and the claims are reduced (baring another conflict) they will be out of their jobs?  Do not agree with remedy:
This gov't blows money out the window, texting billions (even if it was in the overspending "budget"), and "that's patently absurd". That's why we have deficit spending in the billions. Thus blow some Veterans way and clear up the mess.

I never said not to assess the file. Stated an alternative method to reduce the huge backlog.

VAC requires a very radical jump start. I don't thing Cdn taxpayer would be upset if Veterans situation was resolved quickly. The Conservatives could devise a plan to resolve the issue such as outsourcing as an election plank, and of course follow through.

I am the farthest thing from a bureaucrat, 'dyed in the wool' or otherwise. I am also not 'making excuses for' VAC. I simply have some knowledge of bureaucracy. Not a whole ton, but enough to enter into discussions like this without a particular set of blinders that others seem to wear; namely, that there is an extensive and often painful - but obligatory - process and set of conditions that government initiatives have to adhere to. I don't raise issues like constraints on how the government spends money because I'm cheering those things on, but merely because they're an objective reality that other things must contend with.

You're being unclear about what your proposed address to the backlog is. What you said was:

VAC should triage ALL the files in the system. Quick review for conceivably, grant the claim at the max, with a provision of non precedent approval with respect to a one time benefit, then start from scratch.

So you're saying rip through the hole backlog, ask "Is the claim conceivable?" and grant it at maximum if so. I interpret from this that by 'at maximum' you mean 'what is the condition being claimed?' and to pay it out at the maximum seen in the table of disabilities for that particular claim. Use this tecnique to wipe out the backlog, say that 'just because these were granted so easily does not entitle anyone in future to same', and then carry on. So no, I've been pretty clear about what you said. You cannot propose what you just proposed, but then also claim that you didn't say 'not to assess' the file. You said "quick review for conceivability", which is a completely different standard of proof. And which again simply won't meet the standards for the how the government spends money.

Each and every claim has to be properly assessed by someone qualified to do that. That's one of those constraints that any realistic proposal must recognize. The math's not really hard here' we're talking about input of claims, time to process claims, and output of determinations. If claims come in faster than they can be processed, wait times go up. If claims come in slower than they can be processed, wait times go down. VAC has little abiltiy to control how fast claims come in, so they variable they can work on is how quickly they are processed. That in turn depends on what is involved in processing a claim (to include assessment, by far the bulk of the work), and the actual capacity they have to simultaneously work multiple claims.

In the system there are various chokepoints, some separate from each other, some which compound each other. We know a lot of them:
  • Quality of incoming claims is one. Are they complete and comprehensive? Has the veteran or their rep provided all info necessary to make the assessment?
  • How many people are there to actually assess and rule on the claim? How experienced and efficient are they? We know VAC needs more of these because they have a ton of job postings up for Veterans Service Agents, Inquiries Resolution Officer, Benefits Program Officer, and Veterans Service Team Manager. They appear to be struggling to fill those roles.
  • Does the public service hiring process hinder bringing in enough people to get this done? Could some part of this backlog be contracted out to a service provider that can hire on a contract basis the necessary people to help work the backlog?
  • Is the process for medically evaluating a claim sound? Are there enough health professionals to move claims through as fast as they come in in terms of determining the actual medical legitimacy of a claim? Does this unnecessarily overlap and duplicate medical evaluations already conducted by the CAF or RCMP health services to determine medical limitations? Can efficiency be sought by front loading any particular additional info VAC might need and making it part of a health assessment that either of those two organizations use to determine medical categories and limitations?

I'm sure there are others. In any case you have more than enough experience with mission analysis and bureaucracy to see where I'm going with this, and I'm frankly disappointed to see you taking shots at me when you're treating this as cavalierly as you seem to be, as if 'throwing money at' the problem means we walk into a big chamber full of anthropomorphized VAC claims and hand each of them a wad of bills to go away and just be dealt with. No. I'm all for throwing money at this problem. So where's the money go? To me it seems that the money has to feed and bolster the parts of the process where this bogs down. Add more capacity to the assembly line. Hire more workers. Reduce duplications of effort. Eliminate unnecesary steps, and optimize those that are inefficient.  Maybe they could separately run a tiger team to aggressively work the 'easy' claims like hearing loss- though they have to be careful not to accidentlally create a system where those with the most complex cases who are most in need of benefits and services aren't stuck waiting longer because their files are less convenient to deal with quickly. Maybe concurrently to all this, bring onboard a few troubleshooter consultants to critically examine processes from the standpoint of the desired product, and to help the department work towards more efficiently delivering every benefit or service to which entitlement can be reasonably and fairly demonstrated by eligible veterans and service members.

Because *those* things can be done. Removing the safeguards around how public servants disburse money on programs, benefits or services realistically can't.
 
Brihard said:
It didn't bother me in the least in its own right. I was just curious if given what you had just said, you were intentionally coming across a way that it seems you weren't, that's all. No harm, no foul.

I am the farthest thing from a bureaucrat, 'dyed in the wool' or otherwise. I am also not 'making excuses for' VAC. I simply have some knowledge of bureaucracy. Not a whole ton, but enough to enter into discussions like this without a particular set of blinders that others seem to wear; namely, that there is an extensive and often painful - but obligatory - process and set of conditions that government initiatives have to adhere to. I don't raise issues like constraints on how the government spends money because I'm cheering those things on, but merely because they're an objective reality that other things must contend with.

You're being unclear about what your proposed address to the backlog is. What you said was:

So you're saying rip through the hole backlog, ask "Is the claim conceivable?" and grant it at maximum if so. I interpret from this that by 'at maximum' you mean 'what is the condition being claimed?' and to pay it out at the maximum seen in the table of disabilities for that particular claim. Use this tecnique to wipe out the backlog, say that 'just because these were granted so easily does not entitle anyone in future to same', and then carry on. So no, I've been pretty clear about what you said. You cannot propose what you just proposed, but then also claim that you didn't say 'not to assess' the file. You said "quick review for conceivability", which is a completely different standard of proof. And which again simply won't meet the standards for the how the government spends money.

My thought process for my post was based on the following: I stated conceivability - capable of being understood, believed, or imagined; or possible. The context is from VRAB directions provided in the Veterans Review and Appeal Board Act. Whether or not any piece of evidence is assessed as credible evidence can depend on a number of factors: 1) The facts or history are accurate and complete, that is, they are the same facts that are apparent from the other evidence; 2) The conclusion makes sense in that it flows logically from the facts; and 3) If it is medical evidence, the medical expert provides a reasonable explanation of how he or she has drawn the conclusion from the facts.

Additionally the Pension Act:"The requirement to “resolve doubt in favour of an applicant” is to be applied throughout the decision-making process in the assessment or “weighing” of the evidence. This requirement is particularly important in those situations where the facts of a case are closely balanced and the adjudicator is having difficulty in deciding whether entitlement should be granted. It should never be used as a substitute for lack of evidence.


Each and every claim has to be properly assessed by someone qualified to do that. That's one of those constraints that any realistic proposal must recognize. The math's not really hard here' we're talking about input of claims, time to process claims, and output of determinations. If claims come in faster than they can be processed, wait times go up. If claims come in slower than they can be processed, wait times go down. VAC has little abiltiy to control how fast claims come in, so they variable they can work on is how quickly they are processed. That in turn depends on what is involved in processing a claim (to include assessment, by far the bulk of the work), and the actual capacity they have to simultaneously work multiple claims.

In the system there are various chokepoints, some separate from each other, some which compound each other. We know a lot of them:
  • Quality of incoming claims is one. Are they complete and comprehensive? Has the veteran or their rep provided all info necessary to make the assessment?
  • How many people are there to actually assess and rule on the claim? How experienced and efficient are they? We know VAC needs more of these because they have a ton of job postings up for Veterans Service Agents, Inquiries Resolution Officer, Benefits Program Officer, and Veterans Service Team Manager. They appear to be struggling to fill those roles.
  • Does the public service hiring process hinder bringing in enough people to get this done? Could some part of this backlog be contracted out to a service provider that can hire on a contract basis the necessary people to help work the backlog?
  • Is the process for medically evaluating a claim sound? Are there enough health professionals to move claims through as fast as they come in in terms of determining the actual medical legitimacy of a claim? Does this unnecessarily overlap and duplicate medical evaluations already conducted by the CAF or RCMP health services to determine medical limitations? Can efficiency be sought by front loading any particular additional info VAC might need and making it part of a health assessment that either of those two organizations use to determine medical categories and limitations?

OK, OK I understand and realize there is bureaucracy, because that's what you are describing. Find a way to triage that system.


I'm sure there are others. In any case you have more than enough experience with mission analysis and bureaucracy to see where I'm going with this, and I'm frankly disappointed to see you taking shots at me when you're treating this as cavalierly as you seem to be, as if 'throwing money at' the problem means we walk into a big chamber full of anthropomorphized VAC claims and hand each of them a wad of bills to go away and just be dealt with. No. I'm all for throwing money at this problem. So where's the money go? To me it seems that the money has to feed and bolster the parts of the process where this bogs down. Add more capacity to the assembly line. Hire more workers. Reduce duplications of effort. Eliminate unnecesary steps, and optimize those that are inefficient.  Maybe they could separately run a tiger team to aggressively work the 'easy' claims like hearing loss- though they have to be careful not to accidentlally create a system where those with the most complex cases who are most in need of benefits and services aren't stuck waiting longer because their files are less convenient to deal with quickly. Maybe concurrently to all this, bring onboard a few troubleshooter consultants to critically examine processes from the standpoint of the desired product, and to help the department work towards more efficiently delivering every benefit or service to which entitlement can be reasonably and fairly demonstrated by eligible veterans and service members.


Because *those* things can be done. Removing the safeguards around how public servants disburse money on programs, benefits or services realistically can't.

I have stated before you are experienced, and knowledgeable so I am not taking shots at you.

VAC means inertia, and the government must think out of the box to fix it.

This government's spending is out of control.
 
What Brihard and Rifleman62 are saying are not that far apart. I like the idea of hiring a contractor as a surge to deal with the backlog, if they think this is a temporary problem which  would go away once the deal with it. Hiring public servants isn't really an efficient way to deal with short term problems. If they think the increased volume is the norm, then they need to start hiring new full time staff rather than term employees.

Right now we have a situation where we have a backlog and despite the governments "best" efforts, the backlog is apparently growing. Until they get back to a managable level, I think it just going to get worse.
 
Speaking of out of control spending. Does anyone have any idea how much it costs to administrate and deliver all of these $20 payments? Figure postage or bank transaction fees. There's typically all kinds of administration being handled by well paid workers. $150, $175? Lower? Higher? It just doesn't seem to be good value for product.
 
Fishbone Jones said:
Speaking of out of control spending. Does anyone have any idea how much it costs to administrate and deliver all of these $20 payments? Figure postage or bank transaction fees. There's typically all kinds of administration being handled by well paid workers. $150, $175? Lower? Higher? It just doesn't seem to be good value for product.

They’re probably nearly completely automated like most regular payments. I don’t believe any fees are charged for direct deposit to a bank account. I would expect that once someone with section 32/34 has authorized the payments, they go into a database and are automated from then on.
 
Brihard said:
Well if people don't *want* to access it, that's fine, that's their call. Plenty of people won't *want* to commit to going back to school, that's not their career path. They might already have a good job lined up. Others may sit on it for a while until an MBA or something becomes a desirable next step. Still others will just have fun with the $5k short courses, which is cool too.

Ultiamtely it makes full time post secondary a lot more accessible now that it would have been before.

Incidentally I've also got an ATIP in to see if they have approved funding for any of the various police, corrections, or border services training programs, since some of those charge tuition, and others don't but don't pay you either. That one's pure curiosity on my part since I know some guys and girls who will take that path in coming years.

At the end of the day, the ETB is less a veterans benefit and more of a recruitment program and should be thought of as such. “Join the CF, do 6 years and we pay for your school!”  is clearly more of a tool for recruiters then anything.The fact that it’s available to everyone is evidence of that.

That’s not to make judgements about it being “good” or “bad” (I actually think it’s a fantastic program) just stating the facts. It really shouldn’t be considered as part of a disabled veterans total compensation package
 
Rifleman62 said:
The Conservatives could ydevise a plan to resolve the issue such as outsourcing as an election plank, and of course follow through.

But like...the Comservatives are the ones who CHANGED from the old PA to the NVC. They did it for the primary purpose TO save money (or put another way, to give vets less money). If not for the Conservatives, we’d all still be under the same PA as ever. Regardless of how one feels the Libs have handled the mess the Cons dropped in their laps, that’s an unavoidable fact. I’m not sure why you’d trust/want the party responsible  for MAKING the mess we’re currently in to somehow fix the problem.

And from a “big picture” standpoint, if you look at the main platform for ANY Conservative party in Western nations is to cut spending and reduce taxes. Without getting into the weeds on if that’s a good idea or not (since a huge number of disparate factors would go into such a judgement), the fact remains that IF you’re primary beef is there some social  benefit  you think needs to be strengthened (whether that’s welfare, healthcare, veterans comp, what have you) why would anyone vote conservative? Their literal reason for existence is to cut spending/costs.

Again, I’m not saying voting conservative is good or bad. There definitely ARE good reasons to vote for conservative parties, but they are almost entirely related to things like lower taxes/reduced spending & benefits. To vote for a Conservative party because you think they’re going to INCREASE our benefits is just a fundamental misreading of what conservative parties stand for. Don’t be fooled by “support the troops” platitudes (that goes for any political party btw).

Look at her States. Rhetorically, Trumpbis the best president vets could have. But policy wise he’s cut funding and is desperately trying to privatize vet comp and benefits. And if you want to see a $hitshow, wait until private business is in charge of approving veterans benefits.
 
But like...the Conservatives are the ones who CHANGED from the old PA to the NVC.

Yes and No.

It was PM Paul Martin legislation. Shortly after Martin's gov't defeat, it was the anniversary of the liberation of the Netherlands. Harper invited ALL the leaders of the other political party's to attend. On the rtn flight from Europe, he got together with the leaders and they agreed to pass the Liberals VAC legislation. It passed in parliament unanimously.

Common misconception that that dastardly HARPER did it to the Vets.
 
Armyguy25 said:
At the end of the day, the ETB is less a veterans benefit and more of a recruitment program and should be thought of as such. “Join the CF, do 6 years and we pay for your school!”  is clearly more of a tool for recruiters then anything.The fact that it’s available to everyone is evidence of that.

That’s not to make judgements about it being “good” or “bad” (I actually think it’s a fantastic program) just stating the facts. It really shouldn’t be considered as part of a disabled veterans total compensation package

I really don't think so, else there would have been better coord with DND on the benefit. Don't get me wrong- your logic is sound. But if it was being eyed as a recruiting incentive, they would have done an 'all in' look at the impact it has on the CAF, particularly retention. It has essentially added a significant incentive to release for troops at the 6 or 12 year mark. I've heard from several 'institutional army' people in the PRes (some of whom wear other hats in unit/coy command teams) that the ETB is causing some grief in terms of NCOs getting out to take advantage of it. For a bunch of us who are working to balance the PRes and real life anyway, we're now being offered $40k-$80k to quite and get education/training that will further our civilian careers. This was easily anticipated- I'm inclined to think that if the benefit was intended to bolster recruiting, there would have been something else set up to try to offset this; maybe some sort of retention bonus or further education funding for those still in.

From VAC's standpoint, it's a good benefit. For the CAF, not so much. Though yes, I concede it certainly won't hurt recruiting... But it's easier to generate new troops than it is to keep experienced ones.
 
Armyguy25:
Look at her States. Rhetorically, Trump is the best president vets could have. But policy wise he’s cut funding and is desperately trying to privatize vet comp and benefits. And if you want to see a $hitshow, wait until private business is in charge of approving veterans benefits.

I missed that statement. What Trump is doing is allowing Vets to go to a MD of their own choice rather than having to wait, in some cases months. to go to the Veterans Administration facility.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-signs-legislation-allowing-veterans-seek-care-private-doctors-2017-4

Trump signs bill allowing veterans to seek care outside broken VA system - 9 Apr 17

The US has entirely different system for Vets who get health care, hospital care, prescription drugs, mortgages, etc as well disability benefits from the Veterans Administration. https://www.va.gov/

Trump is increasing the VA's budget, not cutting: https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=4007  President Trump Seeks $12B Increase in FY2019 VA Budget to Support Nation’s Veterans

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2018/09/21/trump-oks-the-largest-va-budget-ever/

Trump signs the largest VA budget ever - 21 Sep 18

WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump signed the Department of Veterans Affairs fiscal 2019 budget into law on Friday, giving the department a funding boost of more than 6 percent and pushing the agency’s total spending over $200 billion for the first time.



Do you watch CNN by any chance???
 
Rifleman62 said:
Yes and No.

It was PM Paul Martin legislation. Shortly after Martin's gov't defeat, it was the anniversary of the liberation of the Netherlands. Harper invited ALL the leaders of the other political party's to attend. On the rtn flight from Europe, he got together with the leaders and they agreed to pass the Liberals VAC legislation. It passed in parliament unanimously.

Common misconception that that dastardly HARPER did it to the Vets.

Legislation "belongs" to whoever passed it not whoever started it. Harper and the Cons didn't HAVE to pass it. They could have made small changes, big changes, or just not passed it at all. The fact that they did means they own it.

And in any event, the bigger picture is, if a voters primary voting issue is that you believe a specific benefit isn't enough (any benefit), you don't vote for a (small c) conservative party. They exist to CUT spending/benefits.

It'd be like if you're beef is that you hate marijuana legalization, and so you vote for the Marijuana Party. It wouldn't make sense. Your vote is fundamentally at odds with your priority.
 
I think the point is that all political parties had a hand in this, not just any one party on it's own.   
 
Legislation "belongs" to whoever passed it not whoever started it. Harper and the Cons didn't HAVE to pass it. They could have made small changes, big changes, or just not passed it at all. The fact that they did means they own it.

Correct. There were Committee hearings for a period of time which Veterans groups attended as well as the RCL. The purposed legislation was well known. That's why the meeting on the aircraft all the leaders agreed on the legislation. Legislation was passed unanimously in the Parliament.

So yes the Conservatives "own" it. I was pointing out the actual history of the Bill.

The Liberals campaigned in 2015 for changes to the Act. How's that doing for you?

....you don't vote for a (small c) conservative party. They exist to CUT spending/benefits.

Yes, do vote Liberal: Trudeau: "The Budget Will Balance Itself"
 
So basically we are stuck with getting $25 monthly payments with no lump sum option? Is this set in stone?  It barely covers my banking fees....
 
Yep, looks like you are stuck with 25$/month. Even calling VAC now, there is a message that states no lump sum will be available. You can thank Trudeau for that in the next election.
 
Rifleman62 said:
Armyguy25:
I missed that statement. What Trump is doing is allowing Vets to go to a MD of their own choice rather than having to wait, in some cases months. to go to the Veterans Administration facility.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-signs-legislation-allowing-veterans-seek-care-private-doctors-2017-4

Trump signs bill allowing veterans to seek care outside broken VA system - 9 Apr 17

The US has entirely different system for Vets who get health care, hospital care, prescription drugs, mortgages, etc as well disability benefits from the Veterans Administration. https://www.va.gov/

Trump is increasing the VA's budget, not cutting: https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=4007  President Trump Seeks $12B Increase in FY2019 VA Budget to Support Nation’s Veterans

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2018/09/21/trump-oks-the-largest-va-budget-ever/

Trump signs the largest VA budget ever - 21 Sep 18

WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump signed the Department of Veterans Affairs fiscal 2019 budget into law on Friday, giving the department a funding boost of more than 6 percent and pushing the agency’s total spending over $200 billion for the first time.



Do you watch CNN by any chance???

I actually consume news from a variety of sources. I also don't just read headlines, but dig into the specifics. I'm assuming you're a steady Fox News viewer? That cesspool is a bubble designed to keep the middle and working classes in the dark about how they're being robbed, by feeding you a steady diet of misleading headlines, confident that you'll never dig into the meat of the issue. Case in point:

From YOUR article https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2018/09/21/trump-oks-the-largest-va-budget-ever/:

"Democrats said they still are not satisfied with the short-term spending plug to cover what is expected to be an even bigger financial hole next year.

“The bill the president signed today leaves a funding gap in May of 2019, expected to grow to more than $8 billion in fiscal year 2020,” Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., the top Democrat on the Senate Appropriations Committee, said in a statement after the signing.

Which both proves my point and is a great example of how only consuming headlines is misleading. First of all, because of inflation and ever increasing gov spending, almost every department has it's
biggest budget ever!!" every single year. You know what was the "biggest budget ever" BEFORE 2019? 2018. and 2017 before that. And so on and so forth. Just like 2020 will be the biggest budget ever at that time. So will 2021. But when you dig into the meat, you see it's not really everything it's cracked up to be. A $12 billion increase may sound nice in and of itself....until you realize the department has been chronically underfunded since the Republicans took over Congress in 2010, and is actually UNDERfunded by $20 billion. So the story ISN'T that "Trump and Republicans increased the VA budget by $12 billion" even though it's factually true. The story is how Trump and the Republicans short changed vets by $8 billion

The Democrats wanted the dept funded for $20 billion. I'm certainly no fan of Hillary Clinton, but a President Clinton would have increased the VA budget by $8 billion MORE then Trump.

Which goes back to my main point: conservative parties (whether it be the Canadian Conservative Party, the Republicans, the Tories in the UK etc etc) exist to CUT spending and benefits. This isn't inherently good OR bad. There are times when cutting spending is a good thing and times when it's a bad thing and where those lines are are for each voter to decide. My main point is the simple, indisputable fact that IF you're main priority is a lack of benefits, you don't vote for conservative parties.

And on a more Trump specific point, you'll notice this bit buried at the bottom of your article:

The VA funding legislation also includes $10.3 billion in military construction funding for fiscal 2019 as well as the full-year budgets for the legislative branch and federal energy programs.

So of that underfunded increase of $12 billion....$10.3 billion ACTUALLY went to "military construction funding". And since Trump already floated the idea of the military building his wall, that's likely what that money is earmarked for. Even if not, hard to see how an "increase" that is taken up almost entirely by "military construction" is going to help vets. So yeah....the devils in the details.

And I won't pretend to be an expert in the ins and outs of the US VA system. But the ones that ARE (the actual vets groups) all nearly universally oppose the privatization of their health care. I'll defer to them

https://www.militarytimes.com/veterans/2018/04/11/vets-groups-and-lawmakers-say-theyre-against-it-but-what-does-privatization-of-veterans-affairs-really-mean/

In any case, I didn't mean this to turn into a Trump bashing session. My overall point is: If your major voting priority is that you're not getting enough benefits from VAC, you don't vote Conservative. They will only destroy it more. Forget the personalities. It isn't about Trudeau or Harper or Martin or whoever. It's about what political parties fundamentally want to do. And small 'c' conservative parties in every Western nation fundamentally want to cut spending and benefits.  Don't get me wrong, there may be any number of GOOD reasons to vote Conservative. But wanting better benefits from VAC isn't one of them.

 
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