Victoria Cross

[jbeach95]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/05/cross-soldier.html

Unknown Soldier shouldn't get Victoria Cross: veterans
Last Updated: Monday, March 5, 2007 | 10:37 PM ET
CBC News

Canada wants to honour the Unknown Soldier with the prestigious Victoria Cross medal, but veterans are opposed to the idea.

The Victoria Cross is supposed to honour the absolute highest acts of military bravery, veterans say, but there are no records about the Unknown Soldier and the type of service he provided in the First World War.

The anonymous soldier's remains were buried in a stately tomb in Ottawa in 2000 to represent all Canadians who give their life in battle.

"[The Victoria Cross] is a very special award, it has never been given lightly," Bob Butt, a spokesman for the Royal Canadian Legion, told CBC News on Monday.

The medal, created in the 1856 by Queen Victoria, has been awarded to 1,350 soldiers, including 94 Canadians. The last time it went to a Canadian was in 1945.

Federal government sources, speaking anonymously to various media outlets this week, said the government plans to revive the Victoria Cross and the first recipient will be the Unknown Soldier.

The Globe and Mail reported Saturday that the medal, with a special Canadian design, will be presented to Prime Minister Stephen Harper by Queen Elizabeth at a ceremony in France in April. Harper will bring the medal back to Canada.

But the Canadian Legion said the Unknown Soldier is supposed to represent all veterans, not singled out with such a high award.

"As veterans will tell you, he is one of us," Butt said of the Unknown Soldier. "He's one of the people that donned the uniform. [He] went over, not for glory, not for medals, not for honours and awards.

"He went to service his country, and that's the way he should be remembered."

Decision called misguided

The National Council of Veteran Associations in Canada agrees. The organization has written a letter to Gov. Gen. Michaëlle Jean urging her to stop the cross from being awarded.

Butt said the government is trying to honour veterans with this latest move, but it is misguided.

"Everybody wants to honour veterans, and sometimes the way that they honour them is not exactly the way veterans themselves want to be honoured," he said.

The Victoria Cross has sometimes been criticized as being too British an award. It was not part of the new Canadian military honour system developed in 1972.

In 1993, the Queen approved the establishment of a Canadian Victoria Cross. The Globe reported Saturday that the Canadian version, which is designed and produced in Canada, will be the one awarded to the Unknown Soldier.

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

And so it begins  :-\

I will restrict my thoughts to this: This isn't about the veterans; the Unknown Soldier isn't meant to represent veterans.

One other thing: this is a royal prerogative; it isn't really up for discussion 

 

[Loachman]

This isn't about the veterans; the Unknown Soldier isn't meant to represent veterans.

It isn't? He isn't?

What is it about, then? What is he meant to represent, then?

The Legion disagrees with you. So do I.

This whole thing is wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

[BillN]

The UK, Australia, and I believe NZ, have all awarded the VC to their Unknown Soldiers.  This "warped" thinking of the RCL probably, in my opinion, stems from the fact that it's mainly a civilian organization these days with very few serving or veterans left in it.

 

[the 48th regulator]

The American Unknown Soldier from World War 1 also was bestowed a Victoria Cross from King George V

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/wwi-unk.htm

The Victoria Cross, Britain's most prized war decoration, never before placed on the breast of a man not a British subject, was next bestowed. Earl Beatty, Admiral of the Fleet, set it on the flag and saluted as he stepped back. Then General, the Earl of Cavan, representing the King of England in person, spoke briefly on the services this humble soldier had rendered not only to America but to the world there in France.

So we are in no way setting a precedence of breaking any sort of tradition.

dileas

tess

 

[larry Strong]

Well as a ex-serviceman and a Legion member, I always thought the Unknown soldier represented all men who went and died, from the one who took out the machine gun nest to the one who had to be pushed out of the trench to go into the attack. No medal required.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The American Unknown Soldier from World War 1 also was bestowed a Victoria Cross from King George V

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/wwi-unk.htm

So we are in no way setting a precedence of breaking any sort of tradition.

dileas

tess

In fact, that one seems to have gone both ways - according to British War Memorial Project:  "The VC has, exceptionally, been awarded to the American Unknown Soldier; the US Medal of Honor was reciprocally awarded to the British Unknown Warrior."

 

[Reccesoldier]

The argument over if it is wanted or warranted aside what is wrong about this proposal is that the VC will be presented to the PM.

Nothing against Prime Minister Harper but this should most definitely NOT become a political photo op.  :threat:

Our Vets and all the unknown soldiers deserve more respect than that 

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

+1  Reccesoldier

I hadn't even considered that aspect. Ideally the Queen should be "presenting" it in Ottawa rather than at Vimy Ridge but commemorating Vimy Ridge is of course important at well. Failing that it should be the GG doing the presentation. Something simple like just laying the VC on the tomb. It is all still a matter of speculation though as there is nothing official announced. I s

The PM seems to be having second thoughts as well.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/06/victoria-cross.html

 

[Babbling Brooks]

Here's a quote from a VC website that, unfortunately, no longer exists:

It is worth remembering that many servicemen who merited the Victoria Cross never received it because their actions went unnoticed, or the witnesses were killed, or whose self-sacrifice resulted in a lonely death in an unmarked grave. This is true no matter what the nationality of the person and is the reason why the tomb of a nation's unknown warrior usually has the highest gallantry decoration bestowed upon it.

Symbolically, I think awarding the Unknown Soldier a VC would recognize not only the anonymous and unidentified soldiers, but also the unheralded and unrecognized acts of bravery that occur in war when nobody's looking or nobody's left alive to testify to them.

 

[larry Strong]

Here's a quote from a VC website that, unfortunately, no longer exists:

Symbolically, I think awarding the Unknown Soldier a VC would recognize not only the anonymous and unidentified soldiers, but also the unheralded and unrecognized acts of bravery that occur in war when nobodies looking, or no ones left alive to testify to them.

Thanks for that, I had not thought of it in that fashion.

 

[Reccesoldier]

From DH&R's own website:

ELIGIBILITY & CRITERIA

A person is eligible to be awarded a Military Valour Decoration if that person, on or after January 1, 1993 is:

a member of the Canadian Forces; or
a member of an allied armed force that is serving with or in conjunction with the Canadian Forces.
The Victoria Cross shall be awarded for the most conspicuous bravery, a daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty, in the presence of the enemy.

Emphasis: mine

So strictly speaking (and tongue planted firmly in cheek) the Unknown soldier doesn't meet the criteria.

 

[the 48th regulator]

The Victoria Cross shall be awarded for the most conspicuous bravery, a daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty, in the presence of the enemy.

He sacrificed his life and identity,  that should fall under the highlighted portions, no?

dileas

tess

 

[Michael OLeary]

I'm actually quite unperturbed whether of not the first [Canadian] VC is ceremonially awarded to the Unknown Soldier.  On one hand precedents have been set by other nations for the awards of "highest honours' to the Unknowns.  On the other, and with regard to the detractors of this proposal, it does make me wonder how exactly the award is diminished if this is done?  Does it lessen the honour paid to a living soldier afterwards?  What occurs that would materially lessen the credibility of the Victoria Cross?

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I'm actually quite unperturbed whether of not the first [Canadian] VC is ceremonially awarded to the Unknown Soldier.  On one hand precedents have been set by other nations for the awards of "highest honours' to the Unknowns.  On the other, and with regard to the detractors of this proposal, it does make me wonder how exactly the award is diminished if this is done?  Does it lessen the honour paid to a living soldier afterwards?  What occurs that would materially lessen the credibility of the Victoria Cross?

I agree Michael. As long as we stick to a strict criteria for awarding this medal for those who follow we will be fine. No one is going to say "Oh this doesn't mean anything because some unknown dude got it."

 

[Blackadder1916]

I've been following this thread with some interest as mention is made to precedent, legal criteria for award, and whether it is right and fitting for the VC to be presented by Her Majesty to the PM during a commemorative ceremony at Vimy Ridge.

Precedent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross

A total of 1,356 Victoria Crosses have been awarded since 1856. This figure is made up of 1,352 people who have earned the VC, plus three bars (awarded to people who receive the decoration a second time), and one award in 1921 to the American Unknown Soldier of the First World War. (The British Unknown Warrior was reciprocally awarded the US Medal of Honor.)

The British and US governments awarded their respective highest decoration to the Unknown of the other country at about the same time (within a couple of weeks of the other).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unknown_Warrior   
http://www.westminster-abbey.org/library/burial/warrior.htm

I have found no reference to any Commonwealth country awarding the VC to their own Unknown Soldier.

Criteria for Award
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/honour_awards_e.asp?cat=3&Q_ID=1

A person is eligible to be awarded a Military Valour Decoration if that person, on or after January 1, 1993 is:
a member of the Canadian Forces

I make the assumption that the individual resting in our Tomb of the The Unknown, suitably meets the other criteria for award because he gave the ultimate sacrifice, however for the award of the (Canadian) VC, the Letters Patent authorizing it would have to be amended before it could be legally awarded. 

Is it right and fitting?
It would be fitting to award our Unknown with the highest ranking decoration.  It does not diminish the importance of the Victoria Cross.  Nor does it diminish the contribution made by those who gave their all; or those who served faithfully and survived but, like so many, were not recognized.  In fact, it should have been done when he was entombed in Ottawa, with the VC placed in his tomb with him.

My only objection would be the manner of presentation that is being proposed.  Yes, The Queen should make the presentation.  She is the font of all Canadian honours and this is the highest honour for valour that we can give.  It should not necessarily be at Vimy, perhaps it should be at the actual Tomb of the individual choosen to represent all who fell (wherever that may be on land or at sea) and now rest with no known grave.  It should definitely not be presented to the Prime Minister.  It smacks too much of a political photo op.  If it is to be presented overseas and returned to Canada, it would be much more appropriate that the presentation be made to a delegation which, for example, could be comprised of one of the following groups:

a.  the surviving WW1 veterans;
b.  spouses or children of WW1 veterans who did not return and now lie 'Known But To God';
c.  the youngest and most junior serving members in the CF (it would represent the type of people who served and fell in the greatest number).

If need be The Commander-in-Chief of Canada could accept the decoration and return it to Ottawa for presentation at the Tomb. 

The Prime Minister, if he attends the ceremony, should act as a representative of politicians; politicians of whatever stripe and nationality, those who seek to use political power for either good, bad or their own desires.  As a representative politician during a ceremony honouring those who made the ultimate sacrifice for their country, he should stand in the background.  Those who have served or the surviving family of those who have served may walk by him, shaking his hand or throwing dog-poo on his shoes from a distance of 10 feet as they may desire.

 

[armyvern]

Reproduced under the fairdealings provisions of the copyright act:

http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/189029

Vets irate at Victoria Cross proposal
TheStar.com - News - Vets irate at Victoria Cross proposal
Fight PM's plan to bestow valour medal on Unknown Soldier killed during WWI

March 07, 2007
Isabel Teotonio
Staff Reporter

Amid growing criticism, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said yesterday no final decision has been made on whether the government will honour the Unknown Soldier with the country's most prestigious medal for valour.

"We've actually had some mixed response from veterans' organizations – not all opposed, but some opposed, some in favour," Harper told reporters in Toronto. "The government hasn't taken a final decision on that."

Veterans groups have expressed outrage over reports that the government plans to offer a newly minted Victoria Cross and that the first recipient will be the Unknown Soldier, whose remains are entombed in Ottawa.

The Cross recognizes and honours the highest acts of military bravery, but there are no records for the Unknown Soldier or the service he provided during World War I.

"He should not be elevated in any way above the status of his fallen comrades," said Cliff Chadderton, chairman of the National Council of Veteran Associations in Canada.

Instead, the Unknown Soldier should "represent all fallen soldiers and veterans, regardless of rank or status," he said in a statement.

According to unconfirmed reports, a newly cast Victoria Cross – the first made in Canada – will be given by the Queen to Harper at a ceremony in April commemorating the 90th anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge in France.

Created in 1856 by Queen Victoria, the medal has since been awarded to 1,350 soldiers, including 94 Canadians. The last time a Canadian received the honour was in 1945.

Veterans across the country are angry because "they want the Unknown Soldier in Canada to be one of them," explained Bob Butt, spokesperson for the Royal Canadian Legion at Dominion Command in Ottawa.

"Is this particular honour really necessary? Does it elevate the honour? I don't think so. Does it elevate the status of the person who's buried at the base of the War Memorial? We don't think so."

Particularly upsetting, said Butt, is that when the Legion and two other major veterans' organizations worked to bring home the Unknown Soldier from Vimy and lay him to rest at the memorial's base in May 2000, the issue of honouring him was debated at length. A working group agreed no military honour would be bestowed.

"When they brought the remains back, they did not want any of those remains to be elevated to any level that would be above the common soldier," said Butt. "The term (that veterans) used was, `He's one of us.'

"Why would you give (the Victoria Cross) to the Unknown Soldier? His honour is in the fact that he is there. Why put a symbol on a symbol? The person who is buried as the Unknown Soldier is a symbol to the veterans of Canada, so why put another symbol on him."

Emphasis above is mine. I think that's it's quite important to note that despite the precedence set in awarding the VC to the 'Unknown Soldiers' of other nations, that the working groups responsible for the repatriation of our Canadian Unknown did so based on the agreement that no honour would be bestowed upon him and that he would remain the common soldier, one who represents all of our fallen.

If that's the case, why the debate?? It would seem to me that the decision not to bestow any honours upon him was made in good faith several years ago to those Veterans.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

i understand both sides of this fight. I think the unnamed soldier should get the award to show the valour and duty of all soldiers in WW1 but at the same time I see the side of the fight that says no because awarding a metal just because they can award it is wrong, and may or may not take away the value of a soldier who was awarded or could be awarded the metal for valour and duty on his own actions, not the actions of a whole group of men or an entire army over the period of many years.
I think the unknow soldier has gotten the highest award a soldier can expect and be given, he is buried in the middle of the Nation's capital, as the base of the National Memorial and got a better a funeral service then anyone of his friends  got over in Europe during the war.
My grandfather was a pilot and navigator during the Second World War  has various Honours to his name and was a career officer after the war and was awarded various UN awards during his  years of service and before he died all he said he wanted was a plain box because that was more then most of his friends got when they were buried in Burma, India and other places during the war.
Save this award for a soldier who truly earned it.