B
bono
Guest
anybody know much about it?
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Yeah what would you like to know?
Something about the battle itself?
A specific unit involved?
Post a more specific question and/or PM me and I‘ll see what I can do. You might also want to do a search here for previous posts. Example the book Vimy has been reviewed.
Something about the battle itself?
A specific unit involved?
Post a more specific question and/or PM me and I‘ll see what I can do. You might also want to do a search here for previous posts. Example the book Vimy has been reviewed.
P. Burton wrote an excellant book on this battle titled ‘Vimy‘(I may not agree with all of his politics but he is a good writer, and he left his wierd idea‘s out of this book as with most of his better ones). There are not many other books on this that you will be able to escape from the ‘Canada of the 60‘s‘ mentallity but Burtons is good. Outside of that, it was not a big battle from WW1 point of view (being only a couple of days and only a Corps involved). Anything less than several armies seemed to get lost in the millions of men mobilized for that conflict. js
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Thanks Jungle
I thought about giving a brief overview of the battle here, but I‘ve done it once on this site and basically I‘m feeling lazy tonight.
Here‘s my review of Berton‘s book. It‘s probably a good place to start a discussion of the battle. Any specific questions post em and I‘ll try and answer them.
http://army.ca/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/14/23?
BTW JSA First, you care to clarify what you mean about wild ideas there.
Secondly you‘re technically correct in it not being "big" basically one Corps, one day, actually about half a day in length (aside from one small objective taken the next morning) and really part of a larger battle. The Brits officially refer it is as Arras.
However I wouldn‘t dismiss it altogether. Aside from the political/propoganda effect it was important for other reasons. A lot of "modern" techniques of combat, battle drills, fire and movement, counter battery fire, etc were developed for and first used there.
I thought about giving a brief overview of the battle here, but I‘ve done it once on this site and basically I‘m feeling lazy tonight.
Here‘s my review of Berton‘s book. It‘s probably a good place to start a discussion of the battle. Any specific questions post em and I‘ll try and answer them.
http://army.ca/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/14/23?
BTW JSA First, you care to clarify what you mean about wild ideas there.
Secondly you‘re technically correct in it not being "big" basically one Corps, one day, actually about half a day in length (aside from one small objective taken the next morning) and really part of a larger battle. The Brits officially refer it is as Arras.
However I wouldn‘t dismiss it altogether. Aside from the political/propoganda effect it was important for other reasons. A lot of "modern" techniques of combat, battle drills, fire and movement, counter battery fire, etc were developed for and first used there.
No intention to start an argument. Just stating that in the realm of WW1 history this was a small battle (many small battles have been played up for propaganda purposes by both sides in every conflict). The Canadian corps was quite ‘cutting edge‘ for their time, probably due to the fact of being sprinked with British professions to stiffen up the bright creative amatuers. I remember reading somewhere that Gen Currie (the corps commander who is pretty well forgotten in Canada) was to be considered as a replacement for Haig if the war had continuned longer. As to PB‘s politic‘s, just read his books and form your own opinions. Mine are probably quite radical by others standards but hey, we still live in a free country. js
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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I don‘t know what you mean by the Canadian Corps being sprinkled by "British Professionals". Certainly Byng was one of them. But about half the CEF‘s initial contingent was made up of British-born men who had emigrated to Canada. The appointment of officers - including division and brigade commanders - was pretty much a Canadian show AFAIK (I am sure Sam Hughes saw to that, look at the appoitnment of Garnet Hughes to command 5 Div, and did he also not have a controversial appointment in 1 Div?) But again, what constitutes "British" at that time? Half the CEF could be described as British if you included place of birth among the requirements for that description. If you are referring solely to British Army Regulars, I‘d have to suggest the CEF had very few of those. A look at the battalion, brigade and Division commanders would provide some interesting insights.
The "cutting edge" of the Canadian Corps had very little to do with British professionals, and very much more to do with those talented amateurs you describe.
Unless you were thinking of something specific? But calling Andy McNaughton an amateur, for example, seems weak at best given his scientific background and the results he was able to achieve at Vimy with his sound ranging, flash spotting, etc.
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First: Pierre Berton is alive and kicking and working on another book.
I recall reading that over 60% of the Canadian Expeditionary Force had been born in the UK.
The geatest concentration of Brits in the CEF were in the first two contingents. One writer has suggested that they anticipated a short war, and this would be an inexpensive way to get a paid trip to the UK.
There was a sprinkling of professional British officers in the CEF. The first Corps Commander was a Brit.
I suspect that by the end of the war the bulk of the British Army were territorials or right off the street.
I have also read that one reason for the success of the Canadian Corps was the excellent British administrative and logistical support.
I recall reading that over 60% of the Canadian Expeditionary Force had been born in the UK.
The geatest concentration of Brits in the CEF were in the first two contingents. One writer has suggested that they anticipated a short war, and this would be an inexpensive way to get a paid trip to the UK.
There was a sprinkling of professional British officers in the CEF. The first Corps Commander was a Brit.
I suspect that by the end of the war the bulk of the British Army were territorials or right off the street.
I have also read that one reason for the success of the Canadian Corps was the excellent British administrative and logistical support.
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If you a want better book on WW1 and the Canadian experience try reading "the rites of Spring". I don‘t have the book on hand so I can‘t the authors names, but is a prof at the U of T. Its a very good book, goes into the ideas of day, how this affected Canada. Vimy was actually a very big battle, it was the first any allied army had taken that ground from germans and they did it in one day. From that point one the Canadian Corp never lost a battle; it was the spread head used in the last 100 days of war.
As for the CEF being part British... that true is true of first CEF at arrived in 1914/15. But as teh war dragged on, more and more of its members were made up of Canadians. Canada until very recently was very english/Scotish/Irish/Welish in its background, it was only after the second world war that changed.
As for the CEF being part British... that true is true of first CEF at arrived in 1914/15. But as teh war dragged on, more and more of its members were made up of Canadians. Canada until very recently was very english/Scotish/Irish/Welish in its background, it was only after the second world war that changed.
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I‘ve been to Vimy Ridge several times. It‘s a beautiful location with a superb memorial and information centre. It is very easy to gain a feel for the conditions the troops fought in as there are sections of very well preserved trenches and craters etc. The ground itself is of significant strategic value, particularly to the allies as the ridge dominates the douai valley.
The site is a commonwealth war grave, but gives principal recognition to the Canadian sacrifice and achievement.
For Bill Smy. The British Army was Territorial from a very early stage of WW1 and was "off the street" before "half time". At the start of WW1 the British Army stood at circa 247,000 plus reservists; these were dispersed throughout the Empire, with approx 30% in India. By Nov 1918 the British Army had increased to 3,459,000 PLUS Colonial Troops and, by my reckoning needs to also include the thousands killed and injured during the 4 years plus of war fought. There is little chance of ever really appreciating the scale without visiting the battle fields and seeing the graves and memorials.
The site is a commonwealth war grave, but gives principal recognition to the Canadian sacrifice and achievement.
For Bill Smy. The British Army was Territorial from a very early stage of WW1 and was "off the street" before "half time". At the start of WW1 the British Army stood at circa 247,000 plus reservists; these were dispersed throughout the Empire, with approx 30% in India. By Nov 1918 the British Army had increased to 3,459,000 PLUS Colonial Troops and, by my reckoning needs to also include the thousands killed and injured during the 4 years plus of war fought. There is little chance of ever really appreciating the scale without visiting the battle fields and seeing the graves and memorials.
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For Spr Earl. Geordies and Monkey Hangers! You have done some homework; well done and very accurate. I‘m neither, considering myself a Yorkshireman and above all that!!
We‘re rapidly approaching the end of 2003 and are experiencing some extreme (for England) Temperatures -11C last night with +1C at midday - nothing by CA standards I know (still Tee Shirt weather for you).
The personal accounts are what make the history. It‘s useful to understand the politics, but I try and leave the detail of that to the politicians
We‘re rapidly approaching the end of 2003 and are experiencing some extreme (for England) Temperatures -11C last night with +1C at midday - nothing by CA standards I know (still Tee Shirt weather for you).
The personal accounts are what make the history. It‘s useful to understand the politics, but I try and leave the detail of that to the politicians
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Sir I‘m a Scouser transplanted
You‘re all wooly back‘s to me
Here in Vancouver right now it‘s snowing and cold.
As for your digital photo‘s we have a link for former battle site‘s in the photo section you can down load them to if you wish.
It‘s a new topic that Mike started and we are hoping for more photo‘s of Former Battle Site‘s.
If you have any trouble down loading them just contact Mike Bobbit and he will be more than willing to help you posting them.
Again welcom and a Happy New Year as you have less than 2hrs. to go for 04.
It‘s 14:05 here right now.
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I did notice the photo section, and had a quick look at putting some images in to it. The ones I have stored are all circa 1.5Mb, so need reducing in size before posting.
Looks like a job for later on.
I‘ve got quite a lot from various areas so if there are others of interest let me know.
Happy New Year to all
Looks like a job for later on.
I‘ve got quite a lot from various areas so if there are others of interest let me know.
Happy New Year to all
- Reaction score
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Not being well versed in the new age,I imagine you can reduce the size.
If there is a subject that‘s needed contact Mike and he will make it for your photo‘s.
As you have seen we are trying to make a over all site for all Arm‘s even other Nation‘s as quite a few here have not been over seas or are thinking about joining one of our discipline‘s and every little bit help‘s even guiding them what to is expected of them etc.
What would be nice is some of your thought‘s what is expected of Pvt.‘s Rifleman, LCpl.‘s,Cpl.‘s in the Infantry in the U.K. when the need arise‘s.
Every thing help‘s Ian if I may call you Ian.
Oh by the way great museum in the Tower!
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I‘ve done the "Darkroom" bit with some of the photos and uploaded them to "Former Battle sites". Descriptions etc completed for them which I hope are self explanatory. I have others (lots) but interesting ones are probably printed from 35mm and will need scanning; a project for another day.
Thoughts on Junior Ranks - we can go into detail separately. They are (in my opinion) the most important people on whom success or otherwise lies.
Ian is fine; my friends call me "McF"
Thoughts on Junior Ranks - we can go into detail separately. They are (in my opinion) the most important people on whom success or otherwise lies.
Ian is fine; my friends call me "McF"
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I must admit that I was quite disappointed with the Vimy battlefield. The site is now obsured by the trees planted to remember those who paid the ultimate price, I would have prefered that the site be maintained in it‘s wartime vista. Having said that, the weight of the history of the site is still extremely moving.
The Gettysburg battlefield is an excellent example of a battlefield that has been maintained in it‘s battlefield conditions. When you stand on a given spot you can see relativly the same view as the person standing there during the war.
The Gettysburg battlefield is an excellent example of a battlefield that has been maintained in it‘s battlefield conditions. When you stand on a given spot you can see relativly the same view as the person standing there during the war.
