Wearing of GCS & GSM

[smale436]

     God help anyone who gets that MS Antivirus in their computer. It took me (on the advice of a computer savvy friend who works in IT) 90 minutes to install and run 4 different removal programs to get rid of it (hopefully). I first started getting the pop-ups every 8-10 minutes and it eventually became every 45 seconds with several at a time taking over the whole screen.

 

[armyvern]

JSR Op,

The Canadian medals system does not allow an individual to have two medals for the same mission i.e. ISAF.  This is the same reason you cannot be awarded and wear the NATO Afghanistan medal.  When you received your GCS you should have turned in your GSM as the former, technically speaking, is an "upgrade".  As of now the only way you can keep, and wear, your GSM is if you were also awarded the Op Allied Force bar for support to the bombing campaign in Kosovo.  This eligibilty criteria can be found in the Canada Gazette Vol. 138, No. 31 Para 11 (2) http://gazetteducanada.gc.ca/partI/2004/20040731/html/decret-e.html and was previously covered in the following thread http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/70908.15

Cheers,

Not true for missions with different mandates which occur in different AORs.

Witness a tour in CM (outside of ISAF) earning the GCM, followed by another tour in KAF which earns the GCS. Two mandates, two seperate tours, two medals earned - both for different things under different mission mandates.

Likewise the folks who recd the GCS and the SWASM for ONE roto, but a roto which witnessed a change in mandate and a move from kabul to KAF. They can wear both medals as awarded.

 

[George Wallace]

I did think that medals and their wear were a DHH responsibility, but it would seem that some people in the CF are overruling what DHH has laid out. I wonder what their grounds are for that?

One of two reasons (sometimes on rare occasions, the combination of both); a person "power tripping" or just "anal retentive".

 

[armyvern]

One of two reasons (sometimes on rare occasions, the combination of both); a person "power tripping" or just "anal retentive".

Exactly. Honours and awards are controlled by DHH - that's their mandate and realm. DHH sets out the precendence for order of wear ... and that precedence includes the order of wear when a person is wearing both. Seems to me that DHH allows both to be worn.

What's up with the CF --- where are those "some people" getting the direction to order one down?? Obviously not from DHH under whose auspices Honours & Awards fall.

 

[Swingline1984]

Respectfully Army Vern, you are wrong, and if anyone is wearing two medals both with the ISAF bar they are also wrong.  The mission may have changed but the Op is the same, mandate means nothing.  The award of the the GCS is for support to ISAF (thus the bar reading ISAF) within the theater of operation (AOR Afghanistan) or for Op Allied Force, Kosovo "period".  If you were, or are, under Op Apollo you get the SWASM.

Cheers,

 

[armyvern]

Respectively Army Vern, you are wrong, and if anyone is wearing two medals both with the ISAF bar they are also wrong.  The mission may have changed but the Op is the same, mandate means nothing.  The award of the the GCS is for support to ISAF (thus the bar reading ISAF) within the theater of operation (AOR Afghanistan) or for Op Allied Force, Kosovo "period".  If you were, or are, under Op Apollo you get the SWASM.

Cheers,

Respectfully,

DHH must be wrong. Their site clearly indicates that both can be worn. When was their authority regarding their being the "Overseers" of Honours & Awards removed from their mandate?

Pers are still serving under OEF - they STILL get the SWASM. Op Apollo has squat to do with it.

And, apparently you are unawares that pers serving in CM support many more missions than Op Athena.

 

[Swingline1984]

Respectfully,

DHH must be wrong. Their site clearly indicates that both can be worn. When was their authority regarding their being the "Overseers" of Honours & Awards removed from their mandate?

Pers are still serving under OEF - they STILL get the SWASM. Op Apollo has squat to do with it.

Sigh...its all semantics, I'm sure you knew what I was getting at ref Apollo.  Medals may be "administered" by DHR but are created by an order in council along with the rules that govern their issue.  But, lets wait for JSR Ops answer from DHR and perhaps I'll find out that I'm not as smart as I think I am, or perhaps, you'll owe me a beer.  Also, DHH no longer handles the medals, they are now under the auspices of the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (DHR) but I digress, once again it comes down to semantics.

Cheers,

 

[armyvern]

Sigh...its all semantics, I'm sure you knew what I was getting at ref Apollo.  Medals may be "administered" by DHR but are created by an order in council along with the rules that govern their issue.  But, lets wait for JSR Ops answer from DHR and perhaps I'll find out that I'm not as smart as I think I am, or perhaps, you'll owe me a beer.  Also, DHH no longer handles the medals, they are now under the auspices of the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (DHR) but I digress, once again it comes down to semantics.

Cheers,

You should reread my post that set you off again. I was speaking to CM personnel.

Earned the GCM and were NOT associated with ISAF. THEN deploy on a second tour into KAF as part of ISAF earning the GCS with bar. TWO seperate medals, two seperate missions, two seperate deployments, two different mandates.

Who is making them take down the GCM? It isn't double recognition. TWO seperate tours, one under ISAF - one not - two seperate medals ... and according to DHH precedence, they can wear them both.

DHH = DHR (<--- now, there's semantics) - Whoopppee: just another acronym change in Ottawa they neglected to tell anyone about.

So, when did DHR lose their mandate to Administer Honours and Awards on behalf of the Governor General and when did the CF take over? I'm still curious. I wouldn't consider loss of their "authority to administer" and handing it over to the CF to be semantics. Can anyone answer this? You'll note that many many medals are not military related.

 

[Swingline1984]

Who is making them take down the GCM? It isn't double recognition. TWO seperate tours, one under ISAF - one not - two seperate medals ... and according to DHH precedence, they can wear them both.

Sorry can't keep my mouth shut  ;D What you are describing is two separate tours but only ONE operation i.e. ISAF.  If the bar says "ISAF" it fell under ISAF.  Canada precludes the award of two medals for one Op etc. etc. ad nauseam.  This is actually stated in the FAQ "Canada's national honours policy prohibits the wear of more than one medal for the same service" it is stated in answer to a question with regards to the wearing of the Saudi Arabian medal but holds the same weight if wearing two medals for ISAF.  Of course adding this particular example we are discussing to the FAQ would help support my (or your) argument I would love to keep talking but am exhausted waiting for this damn dial-up to post my comments, so I bid you all a good night.

Cheers,

 

[George Wallace]

Sorry can't keep my mouth shut  ;D What you are describing is two separate tours but only ONE operation i.e. ISAF.  If the bar says "ISAF" it fell under ISAF.  Canada precludes the award of two medals for one Op etc. etc. ad nauseam.  This is actually stated in the FAQ "Canada's national honours policy prohibits the wear of more than one medal for the same service" it is stated in answer to a question with regards to the wearing of the Saudi Arabian medal but holds the same weight if wearing two medals for ISAF.  Of course adding this particular example we are discussing to the FAQ would help support my (or your) argument I would love to keep talking but am exhausted waiting for this damn dial-up to post my comments, so I bid you all a good night.

Cheers,

OK

If I have this correct, you can only wear the ISAF Bar on one of the medals, not both; so your argument has overlooked that fact and is flawed. 

 

[armyvern]

GSM: Awarded for providing "support to an operation - not necessarily in the AOR" (and CM pers support more operations than "just" ISAF Ops from their location).

GCS: Awarded for "taking part IN an operation within the AOR".

Seems to me to be two totally different sets of criteria. One for supporting an operation, one for being "part of" an operation.

 

[aesop081]

criteria.

My God....be careful how you use that word.

;D

 

[armyvern]

My God....be careful how you use that word.

;D

Yes dear.

>

 

[the 48th regulator]

My God....be careful how you use that word.

;D

You rang?

dileas

tess

 

[Blackadder1916]

The link to the pdf file of the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (DH&R) Nov 07 newsletter that dealt with this issue was previously posted.  http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhr-ddhr/publications/pdf/MedalsNEWS_110107.pdf

However, to quote from it:

GCS with ISAF bar (military personnel only – 30 days)

• Kandahar, Afghanistan under OP ATHENA including:
• Canadian Task Force (CA TF)
• Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT)
• Defence & Security Platoon (D&S Plt)
• National Support Element (NSE)
• National Command Element (NCE)
• Health Services Support (HSS) Company
• Coalition Joint Task Force - 76 (CJTF-76), Afghanistan
• ISAF-Headquarters, Kabul, Afghanistan
• ISAF Liaison Officer, Bagram, Afghanistan

GSM with ISAF bar (civilian and police personnel serving under the authority of the CF – 30 days in Afghanistan)
• Civilian service in theatre with all the organizations listed under GCS-ISAF above.

GSM with ISAF bar (military and civilian personnel serving under the authority of the CF – 90 days in support areas)

• Camp Mirage while under OP ATHENA including Theatre Support Element (TSE) and Tactical Airlift Unit (TAU)
• ISAF Liaison Officer, Qatar
• Interim Staging Team (IST) in Istanbul, Turkey
• Logistic support in Taranto, Italy

Visits and inspections do not constitute qualifying service. Specifically, visits for the purpose of leadership, familiarization, ceremonial, or morale by civilian or military VIPs as well as Staff Assistance Visits (SAVs), Staff Inspection Visits (SIVs), and specialist visits for the conduct of summary/criminal/administrative investigations, courts martial, Boards of Inquiry, trial evaluations, academic studies, surveys or other similar administrative activities are excluded from qualification.

One may only count time towards one medal for the same service. One who qualifies for the GCS cannot earn the SWASM for the same service and vice versa. If a person qualifies for both the GCS and the GSM with ISAF bar, the person may only receive the higher award, which is the GCS. If a recipient of the GSM subsequently qualifies for GCS, the GSM must be forfeited for the GCS to be issued.

 

[Swingline1984]

If a person qualifies for both the GCS and the GSM with ISAF bar, the person may only receive the higher award, which is the GCS. If a recipient of the GSM subsequently qualifies for GCS, the GSM must be forfeited for the GCS to be issued.

I've been racking my brain (relatively small place mind you) thinking of where I had seen that reference in writing before, other than orders in council.  Thanks, you have saved my sanity.

OK

If I have this correct, you can only wear the ISAF Bar on one of the medals, not both; so your argument has overlooked that fact and is flawed. 

The bar and the medal are one and the same as it denotes the mission it was awarded for;  both GSM and GCS can have the ISAF bar just not both at the same time on the same uniform.  If you are not awarded either the ISAF or the Op Allied Force bar you will not be awarded the medal (unless they add another Op at a later date).

Cheers,

 

[Niteshade]

Just out of curiosity; are you running MS Antivirus 2008?  It is malicious software that a rogue group of hackers set up to look legitimate, and it not only slows down your PC, but sends data as to what you surf, off to their site.  It is notorious for "pop ups" advertising anti-virus and spyware software for sale.

Nope, I am running Firefox with Ad Aware 8.0. I try to avoid using Microsoft software as much as possible. I am stuck using their OS due to ease of use/other software support.

Nites

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

Well if DH&R wants my GSM back then they can come and take it from me.

My understanding is that tour medals and other such forms of recognition exist to provide a bit of an "atta boy" style boost to morale.  This asinine policy does nothing to further the morale of those who have served honourably in both CM and Afghanistan proper, and who, IMHO, should be entitled to proudly wear both medals they have been issued.

Edit: spelling.

 

[gate_guard]

One may only count time towards one medal for the same service. One who qualifies for the GCS cannot earn the SWASM for the same service and vice versa. If a person qualifies for both the GCS and the GSM with ISAF bar, the person may only receive the higher award, which is the GCS.If a recipient of the GSM subsequently qualifies for GCS, the GSM must be forfeited for the GCS to be issued.

IMO this could be interpreted two different ways:

-Pte Smith does a tour in CM, 3 months in he is transferred to KAF and completes his tour. He initially qualified for the GSM but then qualified for the GCS. Is he entitled to both at this point? I would think not. He gets the GCS and that's it.

OR (as in Willy's case)

-Pte Smith does a tour in CM, gets GSM.
-Pte Smith does another tour in KAF, gets a GCS. Two completely different tours thus he wears both.

Again, it comes down to semantics and how you interpret the wording. In this case he earned them both so let him wear both.

 

[John Nayduk]

Canada hasn't really been consistant with the medals.  Take the rule that you only get one medal per tour/duty/war yet the WW2 and Korea vets have more for the same war.  I know, I know, they are war vets but what do you think is going on in Afghanistan.  The point being that the WW2 guys get a campaign star for the theater they served in (and usually the 1939-45 star is among them), they also get the Defence medal (if they went over before D-Day), the Canadian Volunteer Service medal and the 1939-45 Medal.  Most WW2 vets have at least 5 (2 stars and three medals).  The Korea vets have the Canadian Korea War medal, the U.N. medal for Korea and recently, the Korea Volunteer Service medal. 
Now, I'm not saying that they shouldn't have what they have, the point that I'm trying to make is to prevent a guy from wearing the GSM for a tour in CM if he later serves in Afghanistan and gets the GCS seems very inconsistent with past practice (and kinds of shity if you ask me). 
Also, in WW1 and WW2, the campaign stars were higher in the order of precedence than the war service medal(s).  It looks like we have reversed this for the GCS and the SWASM.  Could we not (and boy I can't wait to get flamed on this) award the SWASM for serving in South West Asia (Afghanistan) and the GCS for serving in the ISAF campaign against the insurgents (and why nor a bar for OEF)?  At least it would be more consistent with past practice.