What do you think?

[Sgt_McWatt]

Although it is not an official pre-requisite. I would argue that camp is important to the development. Although I agree that what Mr. Bu rows said might hold some weight. I would argue that camp forces everyone to work together, since differant corps do things differently, and place emphasis on differant things. Camp is all standardized. Not the most importantthing, but if I where a CO, I would unofficially give camp some weight in my decisions.

 

[Rocky Mountain Ranger]

  I would like to know what others think of this situation and what to do if anything to those below me who do not always treat me with the proper respect I think I deserve as RSM.  Thanks 

You cannot DEMAND respect.  Rank does not mean your cadets must automatically respect you.  I think you need to PROVE to them that you can be the great leader that you know you can be.  If they are questioning whether or not you deserve the position, you need to make it more clear to them.

 

[c.jacob]

When I was in cadets camp was a prerequisite and if you were promoted without it it was only an acting rank.  But with the way things change I could be out of date with those things. 

  Regardless, you respect the rank not necessarily the person.  If you are a CWO then you have all the authority of one and you should expect nothing less.  No matter what you do, you can never please everybody.  I was a Master Cadet with CLI D&C and Patrolling when I was RSM and I still had cadets who thought things were unfair (Mainly because they weren't getting promoted).  It's just part of being RSM.  And it's true that the promotion should go to the person who does a better job.  Qualification doesn't guarantee promotion. 

  With that being said.  You should still respect the cadets who have their summer camp.  It's not easy being at Camp for 6 and 7 weeks.  It's hard work and there's alot to be learned there.  If you give them the attitude that their time spent at camp means nothing it can make them very bitter towards you which you should try and avoid.  I would reccomend that Sr. NCO's have some camp experience under their belt for the sake of leading by example.

 

[Dane]

As long as camp is not a mandatory part of cadets, it should have no bearing at all on one's cadet 'career' at their home corps. I knew cadets who either never went to camp or just went to basic and they did just fine at their home corps. They had other priorities like making money or sports camps or whatnot.

I disagree.

rill Team is not mandatory, biathlon is not mandatory, and a lot of citizenship activities are not mandatory. However a Cadet who participates in these activities and shows a keen interest and ability to leand and succeed will be seen in a "higher" light than other Cadets. Alternatly when I have a Cadet who has attended the CSTC, has gained more knowledge and experience in 6 weeks than most will at the LHQ in a year (by total hours) I will give preference to that Cadet. Another situation, if a Cadet is RTU for a disciplinary reason I will not likely think so highly of that Cadet and they will have to regain my trust.

ACS Training Centres are designed to instill knowledge and skills. A cadet with knowledge and skills that can be used well is more likely and should be more likely to be promoted than some one who does not have these things.

 

[condor888000]

If they cannot commit to a camp for their own good in cadets, what makes you think they can commit to a cadet corps in a position such as Platoon WO/CSM/RSM (a position which requires regular attendance and commitment)?

Many possible reasons why a cadet is unable to attend camp. They could be the best cadet in the world, if something comes up, nothing you can do about it.

Should we actually get into how "successful" cadets are with camp, and without camp, I believe you would find a huge difference.   I know I have observed a Platoon WO with Basic, and a Platoon WO with CLI Drill & Ceremonial.   The WO with Drill & Ceremonial is much more professional, understanding, and leads the platoon much better than the other.

I know I've observed flt comanders with and without SL. All were about equally good, of course some were better than others, but not by a huge margin. By that same point I've observed Sqn Coms with and without SL and guess what? They are also about the same. Camp does not make you a better leader. Even a camp thats primary focus (from my understanding) is to make you a better leader. It may help, but won't do much. It may even hurt. TRUST me on that part, I've seen people come back from camp far worse than they were before they left.

Camp, gives you the chance to experiment, try out, and perfect your leadership skills in a way that isn't possible with LHQ (not enough time).  

Disagree. There is PLENTY to do at LHQ that will test you leadership. I need at least triple the time in order to get everything I need to get done in a given night, hence delegation, hence those cadets who have something delegated to them gain experience in the task and hopefully come out of it with a better understanding of leadership, of course that depends on the task that has to get done, they may not if the task isn't something that would teach it. But they still gain experience.

Lets also not forget, at LHQ, we all tend to make friends/favourites, and not have the best judgement when it comes to going for or against certain people.   At camp, you have the ability to challenge your own leadership on cadets who don't know you - they don't have any grudge or judgement against you, and you don't have anything against them.

As a leader you need to be able to work through that. Even though you don't like someone, you still need to be able to work with them. So it could be said that because there is no one at camp who you are biased against you or you're biased against, you are lacking an oppuopportunityimprove yourself. You always need to be able to work with people you don't like. It can come in handy at LHQ. And if you argue that camp is where leadership is truly learnedrned, then camp is also missing a useful experience.

Therefore you can train yourself in a "perfect world" instead of with cadets who will always be for or against what you do.

World isn't perfect. If you know what to do when things are going to the devil in a handbasket, you'll have an easier time when they're going right. Doesn't work in reverse.

Camp does NOT make a cadet. Full Stop.

 

[Burrows]

If they cannot commit to a camp for their own good in cadets, what makes you think they can commit to a cadet corps in a position such as Platoon WO/CSM/RSM (a position which requires regular attendance and commitment)?

One or two nights a week versus 6 or 7 weeks on end.  Think about it.

Also, qualifications have no effect on how good a leader, or how professional you are.  Its each persons separate mentality that defines their ability.

 

[Dane]

Many possible reasons why a cadet is unable to attend camp. They could be the best cadet in the world, if something comes up, nothing you can do about it. I know I've observed flt comanders with and without SL. All were about equally good, of course some were better than others, but not by a huge margin.

Very true. That said, it's not too often we even find senior Cadets w/o any summer training experience. One of the best staff Cadets in the Vernon Battalion had no previous course experience, and he still was among the top in terms of proffesionalism, leadership and overall ability.

Cadets who go to camp generally perform better on NSCE, as an Army Cadet aside.

Camp does not make you a better leader.

I disagree here. Although we cannot make any universal "camp will do this for you" statements, more Cadets that are a product of CSTC STAFF I believe will have better foundations in practical leadership than some one who only attends LHQ Cadet training (and isn't in a secondary organization that also requires leadership) A course Cadet at Basic, or CL won't leadership but come CLI, L&C or other advanced training they will really have to step it up, and I beleive the demands on most people are more effective than not.

There is PLENTY to do at LHQ that will test you leadership. I need at least triple the time in order to get everything I need to get done in a given night, hence delegation, hence those cadets who have something delegated to them gain experience in the task and hopefully come out of it with a better understanding of leadership, of course that depends on the task that has to get done, they may not if the task isn't something that would teach it. But they still gain experience

I agree here, but again the experience we are getting at the LHQ in three hours is not the same as having 30 cadets who depend on you for 42 days. Again, I'm focusing on staff b/c I feel it's most beneficial for leadsership development.

As a leader you need to be able to work through that. Even though you don't like someone, you still need to be able to work with them. So it could be said that because there is no one at camp who you are biased against you or you're biased against, you are lacking an oppuopportunity to improve yourself. You always need to be able to work with people you don't like. It can come in handy at LHQ. And if you argue that camp is where leadership is truly learnedrned, then camp is also missing a useful experience. World isn't perfect. If you know what to do when things are going to the devil in a handbasket, you'll have an easier time when they're going right. Doesn't work in reverse.

Working with people you don't like will happen anywhere, anytime. There were some people in Vernon I would.......... if I could.

Camp does NOT make a cadet. Full Stop.

Nor does the LHQ...

 

[c.jacob]

One of the advantages of going to camp is you can see different types of leadership.  Going to camp in the summer may make you a better leader or it may not.  At LHQ all you see is the leadership styles, tradtions and habits of your own corps.  At camp you get to work with cadets from many other corps.  You can see different styles of leadership and maybe pickup a new skill you can take back to your own corps.  So camp may or may not make you a better leader but I think it's a good thing because you can see different types of cadets, share stories from each others corps and give each other ideas on how to improve ourselves and hopefully have a positive affect on our corps.  It's all about learning.

 

[condor888000]

I disagree here. Although we cannot make any universal "camp will do this for you" statements, more Cadets that are a product of CSTC STAFF I believe will have better foundations in practical leadership than some one who only attends LHQ Cadet training (and isn't in a secondary organization that also requires leadership) A course Cadet at Basic, or CL won't leadership but come CLI, L&C or other advanced training they will really have to step it up, and I believe the demands on most people are more effective than not.

Staff I won't comment as I have not had the experience yet (but I would lean towards agreeing with you). As to senior courses however, I will not comment on the army side, but from my experience I've had much harder and larger responsibilities at LHQ(minus the whole if I mess up bad I might not land) and the people who have been teaching me how to deal with the situations have been better at showing us what to do than I have experienced at CSTC's(once again, minus my instructors in the A/C). However, I have a feeling that might just be my unit and our advisor's who are VERY good at their jobs. Also my senior camps are keyed to a different type of cadet than the standard good leader. So basically, I understand, but in my mind senior camps aren't worth a whole lot.

I agree here, but again the experience we are getting at the LHQ in three hours is not the same as having 30 cadets who depend on you for 42 days. Again, I'm focusing on staff b/c I feel it's most beneficial for leadership development.

Makes sense.

Working with people you don't like will happen anywhere, anytime. There were some people in Vernon I would.......... if I could.

True, but the original post seemed like camp was only perfect cadets who always got along. I was replying to that and pointed out you must know how to work with people who don't like you or you don't like.

Nor does the LHQ...

Very true. It takes a special person before they join in order to make it in my mind. Leadership is something that I don't really think can be taught, it more has to be experienced.

One of the advantages of going to camp is you can see different types of leadership.  Going to camp in the summer may make you a better leader or it may not.  At LHQ all you see is the leadership styles, trtraditionsnd habits of your own corps.  At camp you get to work with cadets from many other corps.  You can see different styles of leadership and maybe pickup a new skill you can take back to your own corps.  So camp may or may not make you a better leader but I think it's a good thing because you can see different types of cadets, share stories from each others corps and give each other ideas on how to improve ourselves and hopefully have a positive affect on our corps.  It's all about learning.

I agree, but don't think you need camp to learn new ways of leadership. I've done inter-sqn activities, picked up a thing or two. Camp is not the only place to learn. But overall I agree with your post.

Camp is an enormous addition to the person, who is developing as a cadet, and as a person in society.  Without the camp to show them the good, the bad, and the ugly (with leadership, and the things we all know that happen at camp), they have no direction to go to.  Without camp, they have no choice but to rely on what their senior staff is telling them, because they have no other form of outside communication with other corps.  If you go to a camp with 500 staff cadets from 400 different corps, you get to see their leadership, and their way of getting the job done.  Sometimes it's for the better, and sometimes for the worse.  Better to give the cadet the choice though, on what route they want to follow.

I agree with piper, sounds like camp is the be-all-end-all of your cadet existence which it should not be. It is valuable yes, but not a whole lot more than LHQ in my mind.

I'm not making it out to be a miracle "cure all" place.  It's a training centre; its point is to TRAIN cadets to leave a better cadet and leader than what they were when they arrived.

If CSTC's are to train, what about LHQ? I know I give/receive plenty there.....much of it more immediately useful than what I've been given at CSTC's.

 

[condor888000]

Why should camp be a requirement? If your best cadet has to go to summer school and can't go to camp, are you giong to promote someone else who is not as skilled? Or are you going to promote the better cadet?

In air cadets, once you pass level 4 there are no classes. You are an instructor and a leader. Full time. Level 4 is primarily pratical things that will prove usefull next year. Level 3 is a lot of book work and the beginnings of pratical leadership. Seems like you get plenty of pratical experence at LHQ or you should.

And lets face it, at least half cadets go to CSTS's to mess around and have fun, not improve themselves, its just wha happens.

 

[p_imbeault]

I realize that, but if you're speaking of being a good cadet, then you need to (in my opinion) take a camp course.   If you don't want to, then don't, but don't expect to make it very high in the ranks.

Taking a ACSTC course is not a prerequisitefor being a good cadet and advancing through the rank system. The key to being a good senior is not how many Summer Courses you have under your belt, but rather showing that you understand the principles of leadership and that you can handle the responsibility of being able to fill a senior position.

Camp is a fun place to spend a summer, you do learn allot but Camp is not the only place you can ascertain the skills needed to be a good Senior.

 

[condor888000]

Now... If they can't balance their school work with their outside/cadet life, then they are not deserving of "Best Cadet".

.....You're kidding me, right? Failing a class in school does not mean that they are not a good cadet. Thats a stretch and a bad one at that.

As I said, two hours of teaching a class of 10 Red Stars once a week, does not compare to 24 hours of constant teaching and monitoring of a company of 100+ cadets (assuming while you're teaching at LHQ you are also planning on attending summer camp as a staff cadet).

If that's what the cadets want to do with their summer camp time, then make note of it, and give the promotions to the cadets who did well on their courses without fratting, goofing around, etc.   I am speaking for the professional cadets who are there to train, not socialize.

Good god. *shakes head* There are 3 cadets in my unit who are in posistions of authority over me. ALL of them have done things they should have been RTU'd for. I sure as heck have! Pretty much every senior in my unit has. So by your logic, I should not have been promoted. Hows that work when the most qualified cadets are the ones that have fun?

I realize that, but if you're speaking of being a good cadet, then you need to (in my opinion) take a camp course.   If you don't want to, then don't, but don't expect to make it very high in the ranks.

Once more, no a senior cadet doesn't have to be the one who never does anything wrong. Trust me. I've yet to meet a senior that has been perfect.

Taking a ACSTC course is not a prerequisitefor being a good cadet and advancing through the rank system. The key to being a good senior is not how many Summer Courses you have under your belt, but rather showing that you understand the principles of leadership and that you can handle the responsibility of being able to fill a senior position.

Camp is a fun place to spend a summer, you do learn allot but Camp is not the only place you can ascertain the skills needed to be a good Senior.

Finally someone better than me(besides piper) at explaining it!!!!!  

Like all the 'good' cadets who spent 6 weeks shagging (LOTS of that goes on) each other and trying to sneak booze into the camp? Right.

And suceeding at getting the booze, seen that before. Interesting results...... :

Being a good cadet is not in proportion to ammount of fancy badges on your arm. Cadet camp can be fun, but its not an end all.

And here's another guy that can explain it better than me!



Armyboi: Camp is usefull, no doubt. But it is not as great as you're making it out to be. All there is to it.

 

[p_imbeault]

:argument:

'Nuff said.

Truer words were never spoken  ;D

 

[condor888000]

You should be able to pass your courses in school, and do a little bit of work with your corps.   Would you want a MWO teaching Green Star Cadets when he didn't even pass Grade 9 English?

Depends, is the hypothetical MWO teaching them about Shakespeare?

Piper's got it right, this just isn't going to end. Catch me on msn if you still want to debate this.

 

[Buschgirl427]

I agree that getting an RSM position in your corps should depend on camp qualifications. Some people have natural leadership abilityies, and others have to aquire them. However, I am of the beleif that camp gives you experiences that you cant get anyehere else. As a cadet going on course, you learn how to be follower, how to be a leader, and then how to execute being in a leadership position. When you staff, you gain more leadership experience, and thus, you are more prepared for phenominal situations. Confidence, is the thing that stands out in a leader, not qualification.

 

[ryanmann356]

camp is an excellent thing for gaining experience.  I learned so much during my time at VACSTC the knowlege is invaluble.  Some camp time should be expected for certain positions. 

 

[GuNnEr@2853]

I can't choose between getting the job done and who has qualifications. I know I wnat my leaders to get the job done, have the qualifications, and be able to handle the job. That's the type of leader I'm also striving to be.
About the whole respect issue explain it to your CO and they should deal with the cadets.

Bdr. Hartsgrove, A

 

[Burrows]

I agree that getting an RSM position in your corps should depend on camp qualifications.

I don't.  The RSM is an overall role model for the cadets.  He/she is the Alpha and the Omega.  An RSM should be chosen from the amount of work they put into the corps, how their cadets act around them and react to them, as well as the way they carry themselves around the cadets.

Camp used to be a pre-requisite for promotions, and it no longer is.  I don't have anything past Basic and I'm a Sergeant in my corps.  There are several people who have their CL and joined the same time as me who are Cpls and MCpls simply because they don't carry themselves in a professional manner and command respect.

If I was an officer, I wouldn't weight camp for much if at all, I wouldn't see and observe my cadets at the camp, and frankly, that alone would make me want to just count what I see at the home corps.  Between one, maybe two nights a week, and exercises, I'd have to go with what I know the cadet to be like instead of what course reports and badges say.

Forgive me if this doesn't make much sense, it has been a long day.

 

[Biggins]

From an officer's perspective and I don't think that has been added to much to this conversation I would like to add that going to camp isn't a guarantee. The detachements and the subsequent ACO's have to find places for Thousands of cadets and every year tons of deserving cadets aren't selected for camp through no fault of their own. So because they never attended a STC they shouldn't be promoted? That doesn't make sense, though I can't claim to be 100% up to speed on Army Cadet Training but sea cadet courses only enhance LHQ training, it isn't meant to be a requirement for promotion.

That being said as RSM of your unit I would suggest sitting down with your Wrrants and Master Warrants and make it clear to them your expectations. If they still have a problem after that then bring it up with the CO.

 

[ryanmann356]

I think it depends on the corps.  I believe than having a camp qualification does definately help with getting much needed experience if a cadet shows that he is responsible, a good leader and deserves a promotion then go ahead and give it to him