• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

What were the greatest battles for Canada in WW1/WW2?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Veteran`s son
  • Start date Start date
V

Veteran`s son

Guest
Hello Everyone

What do you think were the greatest battles for the Canadian Armed Forces in World War One and World War Two?

Was there a battle that will be remembered as the finest moment for the Canadian military in World War One and World War Two?
 
Vet‘s son - at the risk of the other board members now knowing that I am just an old softie - I just wanted to say that some of the discussions on this board are getting downright venomous, cynical, and sarcastic. (ditto Mike O‘s comments on circling sharks). That being said, I have found your posts to be sincere, and inquisitive, and have enjoyed them. You ask some pretty good questions. Keep it up. Great question, and am looking forward to the responses. We have a broad range of folks on this board, that will provide some insightful opinions, I‘m sure! :cdn:
 
(please excuse my poor spelling and/or grammar)

Vimy Ridge is the one that stands out in everyones memorys and is most likely the finest moment for the Canadian Army, or atleast in many minds. My personal favorite is Pachendale though, after that battle letters where intercepted that cleary showed the fear and respect the Germans had for the Canadians as shock troops and that was where the Canadian forces first really distinguished themselves in my mind. After that the canadians (along with our good buddys the Aussies) where the spear head of every magor offensive of the war.

(I hope im not giving out false info here, im trying to rember a book I read 2 years ago)

Coniar
 
Vimy Ridge is THE greatest Canadian feat of arms, bar none. Even given Berton‘s romanticized version of the battle - which is probably one of the best, most readable, histories out there among thousands of Canadian military history titles, this battle lived on in the national memory throughout the interwar period. That it does not live on is mystifying. It is our Gettysburg, our Yorktown, our Battle of Britain.

Because of Vimy, so the story goes, Canada became a nation - starting with the Statute of Westminster in the early 20s, which gave Canada the right to conduct its own foreign policy.

In WW II, we don‘t have any one cataclysmic battle on the order of Vimy, no one action in which the entire war effort was involved and changed the course of the war. We fought around the globe, and of a population of 8 million put 1 million of them into uniform. We trained Commonwealth pilots and air gunners, navigators, bomb aimers, we built more Bren Guns than the British and Australians combined, we built tanks, invented the armoured personnel carrier, and did the bulk of the escort duties on the North Atlantic Run, feeding the hungry in Britain and Russia and delivering guns, tanks and planes.

On land, Ortona stands out, as does our performance on D-Day in Normandy (we made the deepest penetrations of any of the five beaches). The Scheldt was bloody awful and yet we persevered and won glory for ourselves by opening the approaches to Antwerp - vital to shortening Allied supply lines which because of the Germans‘ tenacity in holding the channel ports (many of whom held out until May 1945) stretched hundreds of miles back to Normandy.

And yet, when it comes to WW II, we dwell on Dieppe (which accomplished nothing) and Hong Kong (which accomplished equally little).

Vimy Ridge was an anomaly - a case of the right men for the right job, but also of being in the right place at the right time. Such circumstances never presented themselves in WW II; we were simply contributing in too many theatres in too many ways. That ain‘t such a bad thing.

I would say that the simple fact of fighting through to final victory - and thereby stopping the Holocaust - was our greatest feat.

The people of Holland would also tell you that Canada‘s liberation of that country was a truly magnificent thing. Not as glorious as Vimy Ridge, no one single victory in the field to point to, but surely just as important. We fed thousands of starving Dutch in 1945, delivered them from occupation, and with our allies in the east and to the south of First Canadian Army, helped put an end to Dachau, Bergen Belsen, Saschenhausen, Auschwitz, Sobibor, Treblinka, and hundreds of other death, work and concentration camps scattered across the continent of Europe.

All of which was situated half a world away and really was none of our business. That we went anyway also says leagues.
 
MD,

What an exceptionally, poignant response. You‘ve done well in outdoing yourself! I‘m waiting for your rebuttal to your own answer! :D Kudos.
 
Just to open it up a bit, who could be considred a Canadian War hero?

In my own humble opinion Canadians should have a better knowledge of our military history. Establishing a widespread pride in past military victories should be an important step in securing reasonable funds for the CF today.

When the only thing civillians hear about are Sea Kings, friendly fire, Somalia, and green CADPAT there is a feeling of a "lost cause" in regards to our military. We need to have the nation‘s pride behind us if we want the nation‘s money.

Forgive me if I‘m out of line, as a civillian I try and stay out of opinionated stuff around here... the above is just my interpretation of what goes on around me.
 
Such circumstances never
presented themselves in WW II; we were simply contributing in too many
theatres in too many ways.
Michael, could you expand on this point?

I am not a fan of Canadian performance during WW2. At the soldier level we had many a good lad, but, our ability to conduct operations was severely limited. We were able to conduct a very methodical process to accomplish limited goals but we never had the opportunity to excell at operational manoevre. Canada (and Britain) had no Guderian, Rundstedt, Kesselring, Model, Rommel, etc. We only had slow, steady, methodical and mediocre Commanders. Don‘t even get me started on our equipment....
 
Gunner - interesting point.

As for expanding on the above - everything I said about the BCATP and the North Atlantic run. We were building all kinds of war materiel in Canada - and for every truly awful weapons system we developed, like the Ram (which was put to very good use as an APC), we developed one or two good ones - production of the 25 pounder and Bren Gun were essential to the war effort, and I would argue these two weapons won the war in Europe and Italy. Coupled with good stout Canadian hearts and sturdy backs, of course, as you point out.

As for the operational art, I don‘t know if I agree. But I don‘t know too much about that area; perhaps you can educate me. I thought that Simonds was generally thought of highly - his invention of the APC and ability to finally bash through at Verrierres (?) using them leave him, tactically speaking at any rate, on a par with the best of the Germans.

The Germans had no operational concept either, though, don‘t forget. Hamstrung as they were by Hitler, the Germans were nonetheless limited in their operational outlook also (if I‘ve read Cooper correctly) on many occasions.

I will confess to having a poor understanding of the textbook definition of "operations" and "operational" so perhaps you can refresh me before I go on.

I know that Vokes handled the 1st Div poorly at the Moro, though the troops fought well. Is this tactics, or operations?

Burns was not a success as I Corps commander, and the corps was really superfluous in Italy.

II Canadian Corps battered itself against tough opposition in Normandy and suffered from its inexperience. One can argue that its equipment was not optimal, certainly the tanks were not suited for taking on German tanks and anti-tank weaponry (which was lavishly issued to their infantry).

But the tank was not really intended to do that, and the artillery system we had was world-class. I don‘t need to tell you what a Victor Target or a TOT was. The German harkos would have killed to have that kind of power, wouldn‘t they?

I‘ll give you that most commanders were colourless - Matthews, Spry, et al that no one today even recognized the name of.

But should we have expected any truly great operational art to have evolved? With so litte emphasis placed in peacetime Canada on formation level exercises or training (some things never change), could we really blame the generals then for not looking beyond fighting yard by yard?

I have a feeling I‘ve missed the point of your post entirely, so feel free to let me know where I‘ve gone astray.

Basically, we concentrated on a LOTmore than justpushing Army divisions around in WW II, and I think all our allies benefited from it.
 
"But the tank was not really intended to do that, and the artillery system we had was world-class. I don‘t need to tell you what a Victor Target or a TOT was. The German harkos would have killed to have that kind of power, wouldn‘t they?"

MD your really big on artillery it keeps coming up in many of our posts would like to hear more on the reasons for this?

This a great post for so far as we Canadians know so little of militray past. Gunner I would like to know about your thoeries on WW2 and why our preformance was poor. I agree with you on the kit side; The British tanks sucks, and even the American‘s ones weren‘t much better just cheap and quick to produce. I‘ve never been a fan of Battle Dress and 37 pat webbing, it would of been nice if we could of had our own. Something that said we‘re Canadian and not a Brit. Did you have any good books I would like to do more reading and you seem very informed.
 
But radiohead, we did have our own uniforms. Canadian Battle Dress was very different from Brit stuff. Better made, better looking.

I‘ll let Gunner or RCA respond to the arty question for now.
 
Just to open it up a bit, who could be considred a Canadian War hero?
to name just a few: Pte ‘Smokey‘ Smith comes immediately to mind, as do Tommy Prince and Cpt Paul Triquet. personally, i think very highly of Col Meritt, for a person with only one day of fighting, he consistently showed a great deal of courage.
 
Vimy, Ortona, Cecil Merritt, Smokey Smith... my little Seaforth heart just swells with pride reading this thread. :D

I‘m very much inclined to agree with everyone on this; nothing the Canadian Forces have done since has ever equalled Vimy. The Somme, Dieppe, and others were disasters, but still were able to demonstrate that Canadians are made of tougher stuff. As for WWII, other than a few notable exceptions (Ortona being one) it was rare that there would be a large scale battle such as Vimy in which Canadians were the sole participants. D-day is a battle honour of the Americans and Brits too, as are many of the most pivotal battles of the war.

I also loved readin Berton‘s book on Vimy, as well as "Marching as to War" which talks about all of Canada‘s participation from the Boer War to Korea... very interesting read.
 
Of course we never had the chance to excel at operational manoeuvre and operational art. We never had the opportunity. Check that list of German generals again and compare the level of command (theatre, army group, army) at which they operated against that of the Canadian commanders.

We also never had an opportunity to start a fight with a doctrinal and experience advantage in our favour. The "delta" between the Germans during their heyday (1940-42) and their opponents was both larger and more favourable than the "delta" between the Allies and Germans in Europe from 1943 until the closing days of the war. The western Allies took the fight to the Germans at what I consider to be the peak of the latter‘s capability (summer ‘43 to fall ‘44). Transpose the Normandy battle area or any sector of the Italian front at any moment in time onto a map of Russia and the truth about opportunities for operational manoeuvre should come clear.
 
:mg: Right on Brad.

A BIT OF A RANT.

Gunner, maybe you would like to expand on your remark “I am not a fan of Canadian
performance during WW2.” Are you talking about the Canadian Army, the Canadian
Navy, the Canadian Airforce, the Canadian People, the Canadian Politicians or just the
whole bloody lot of us in general? Where you even alive at that time? What are you a fan
of? If you want to talk about weapons why not. There are pros and cons on both sides and
we had some of the finest in the world and we had some that was awful and so did the
enemy. Surprisingly enough Blitzkrieg was actually a British idea. A quote from the Rand
McNally Encyclopedia of World War II page 196: “In the 1920s, the German Army,
seeking a fomula for future warfare, embraced the theories currently being advanced by
Liddell Hart, Fuller, Hobart and other British analysts and began the planning of an
integrated armoured force, the Panzers.” I believe our own General Worthington
presented suggestions to the Canadian government about a similar type of army.


Radio Head, so you are not a fan of Battle Dress. Did you ever wear it in Action? The 37
Pattern was good enough for the Americans and the Germans to copy so I think it must of
had something going for it.
 
muskrat89

Thank you for your reply concerning Canada‘s greatest battles in WW1/WW2 as it was most encouraging!

I know that I have asked alot of questions but the members of this message board have been really helpful with their knowledge and replies regarding joining the reserves and other military history questions!
 
Adding to that list of Heroes

WW 1
Leo Clarke VC 2nd Bn CEF
James C. Richardson VC (posthumous) 16th Bn CEF
John B. Croak VC (posthumous) 13th Bn CEF
Thomas Ricketts VC RNFLDR

WW 2
John Osbourne VC (posthumous) 1st bn Winnipeg Grenadiers
John Foote VC RHLI
Fred Tilston VC Essex Scottish Regt.

A small sampling to be sure.
 
I‘m at a loss to understand the regurgitation of VC names in response to a question asking about "heroes".

There is a complete list of Canadian Army VC holders at my website at www.canadiansoldiers.com

I don‘t believe there is such a thing as a hero, and if there is, a hero would be the last one to admit that he was one of them.

To my way of thinking, anyone that served overseas willingly and ably was a hero. Some of those poor *******s went to the UK in 1939 and didn‘t come home until 1946. Home leave didn‘t exist for the vast majority of the Canadian Army in this period.

I don‘t care if you were one of the lucky ones to get a VC or a truck driver in Wales for the whole 6 years - that‘s a long time to be away from home, and pretty heroic by any stretch of the imagination.

VC does not a hero make.
 
Other "big" names:
Arthur Currie: the brain behind Vimy, first Cdn to command the Cdn Corps.
Andy McNaughton: as Arty cmder at Vimy, he developped counter battery techniques to destroy German arty before the assault. In WW2, he was cmder of the Cdn Corps, then was appointed CDS. He eventually became MND. (That‘s odd, a MND with military background...)
There are plenty more, just don‘t wanna touch on that VC list... :cdn:
 
I agree with the general consensus about Vimy. Wondering if the you would agree that the Canadian breakthrough there was foreshadowed in the Boer War? As well, Interested in comments on the best Canadian commander. Was it Currie? Anyone else? How about intellect - did McNaughton beat them all? And am I right in my understanding that McNaughton would have been the first Canadian Gov-Gen but for his decision to become involved in atomic energy?
 
Best Canadian commander? How about Hoffmeister?

Simonds was good too.

McNaughton never commanded in action, I wouldn‘t even consider him.
 
Back
Top