What were they doing in BC?

[dollard]

An uncle served in WWII. From 1941 August he was in the 2nd Batallion of the Canadian Scottish Regiment. In 1943 November he was transferred to the Alberta Reconnaissance Regiment where he was in the Intelligence section. With both regiments he was a driver and was stationed in various small BC towns like Long Beach, Port Alberni, Field, and Vernon. Does anyone know where I can find out what they were doing in these small towns especially the Intelligence part. I have looked at the history of both regiments and nothing is mentioned about what they were doing here. I have his service file. In 1945 he was sent to England.

 

[medicineman]

My guess would be local defence against a possible visit from the Japanese.

MM

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

The 6th, 7th, and 8th Divisions were for home defence.  The 6th and 8th were on the west coast, the 7th was on the east.  These were more or less complete divisions with intelligence sections.  The purpose of the troops in BC was against Japanese attack and some of these troops were involved in the attack on Kiska.  Their only other action was the Terrace Mutiny.  Most of these units were composed of conscripted soldiers who ended up in Europe early in 1945.  Conscripted soldiers were restricted to North America until 1945.

 

[Rifleman62]

Very few conscripted troops (Zombies) went to Europe. Few saw any action by the time they arrived in theater. There were desertions. I will not say many, lots of, etc, cause that is subject to interpretation.

Meanwhile CMHQ in London was dodgy during 1944/45 reporting the facts re Inf casualties in Italy and NW Europe.

We had soldiers in their 30's/40's in infantry sections, Pl/Coys/Bns  approx 40% understrength, AA Arty and other arms/services stripped to provide critically needed Inf reinforcements.

All this so as not to lose the Quebec vote for the Liberals/Mackenzie-King; "conscription if necessary, but not necessarily conscription".

How many lives did Liberal politics cost?

There was a mutiny in Terrace, BC by the Zombies.

 

[marshall sl]

Zombies were conscripted soldiers who refused to serve outside of Canada,not all conscripsts were zombies. My dad tried to enlist at 16,17 and was turned down He was eventualy conscripted but was medicaly discharge just before VE day.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Zombies were conscripted soldiers who refused to serve outside of Canada,not all conscripts were zombies.

Many conscripted soldiers eventually volunteered for overseas service.  Some of my old neighbors were reputed to have sailed to Europe in chains.

 

[dollard]

When my uncle was on Vancouver Island that is probably what he was doing-watching for any signs of Japanese.
I had never heard of the Terrace Mutiny before. My uncle was in Terrace but it was over a year before the Mutiny.
I'm still wondering what the Intelligence section he was with was doing in Vernon, Field, and Nanaimo. I know there were army bases in Vernon and Nanaimo and a POW camp in Field.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

I'm still wondering what the Intelligence section he was with was doing in Vernon, Field, and Nanaimo. I know there were army bases in Vernon and Nanaimo and a POW camp in Field.

I don't know the strength of 2 divisions but it must have been between 20,000 and 40,000.  I suspect they were spread around simply for logistical reasons.  However I know exactly what the intelligence section was doing - drill and training, just like everyone else.

 

[dollard]

I don't understand what you mean about 2 divisions. How do you know there were two divisions? He was in the army in BC for about 3 1/2 years before he was sent to the UK so I assumed he must have been doing something useful besides training. He wasn't a conscript and was willing to go O/S. Spreading them around would make sense.

I don't know the strength of 2 divisions but it must have been between 20,000 and 40,000.  I suspect they were spread around simply for logistical reasons.  However I know exactly what the intelligence section was doing - drill and training, just like everyone else.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

I don't understand what you mean about 2 divisions. How do you know there were two divisions? He was in the army in BC for about 3 1/2 years before he was sent to the UK so I assumed he must have been doing something useful besides training. He wasn't a conscript and was willing to go O/S.

Trust me there were 2 divisions, one for less time than the other.  Google the 6 and 8th Canadian Infantry Divisions.  All the officers and non-commissioned officers were volunteers but none (or few) of the privates.  He was likely teaching intelligence to conscripts.

 

[dollard]

What is the connection between the batallion I am talking about and the two divisions you are talking about?

Trust me there were 2 divisions, one for less time than the other.  Google the 6 and 8th Canadian Infantry Divisions.  All the officers and non-commissioned officers were volunteers but none (or few) of the privates.  He was likely teaching intelligence to conscripts.

 

[Edward Campbell]

What is the connection between the batallion I am talking about and the two divisions you are talking about?

Two or three, or more, battalions are grouped together into a brigade and the two or three (or more) brigades are formed into a division. So the 2nd Battalion of the Canadian Scottish would have been in one of the brigades in one of those divisions.

 

[Michael OLeary]

See the organization of the 6th Canadian Infantry Division (on Wikipedia). The 2nd Battalion, Canadian Scottish Regiment is shown in the 13th Canadian Infantry Brigade in the March 1942 organization.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/Canada/CA/SixYears/SixYears-E.html

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . I'm still wondering what the Intelligence section he was with was doing in Vernon, Field, and Nanaimo. . . .

Stop thinking about intelligence in terms of James Bond.  The “intelligence section” that your uncle belonged to would have been part of the regimental headquarters of the reconnaissance regiment to which he was posted.  A unit intelligence section’s primary function is the “sifting and recording of information”.  Since you stated he was a “driver” with both the 2nd Bn Canadian Scottish Regiment, and the Alberta Reconnaissance Regiment (I assume you mean 31st (Alberta) Reconnaissance Reg’t – both of which were at various times in the 6th Canadian Infantry Division in BC), it may be likely that he was the driver for the unit Intelligence Officer (usually a regimental officer with additional training and not a specialized intelligence officer).  The Canadian Army during WW2 generally followed the organization of the British Army.  The Canadian home defence divisions and their constituent units, however, were usually understrength and their vehicles and equipment would not have matched those field force units deployed overseas, so the following would only be a guideline for the recce regt in which your uncle served.

In this organization chart you can see where the regimental HQ sits .
The org chart is from http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain/44_org/infantry%20divs/44_id_recon-rgt.html.

There is some additional information in this post on another forum that provides a little more detail about the authorized strength of a Recce Regiment as well as the assignment of vehicles.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/armour/28487-reconnaissance.html

RECONNAISSANCE REGIMENT

War Establishment II/251/2. December 1943.

The Reconnaissance Regiment was the 1944 version of the cavalry reconnaissance unit that had been a part of a division sized force for centuries. Originally divisional reconnaissance regiments were horsed cavalry regiments but they were mechanised before WWII and were equipped with light tanks and Scout Carriers. Early in the war all reconnaissance units became a part of the newly formed Reconnaissance Corp but in late1943 all reconnaissance units except the Reconnaissance Regiment (and airborne reconnaissance units) had reverted to the Royal Armoured Corp.

The War Establishment for a Reconnaissance Regiment in 21 Army Group was WE II/251/2 with an effective date of December 1943. There do not seem to be any later establishments and all the evidence suggests that although individual regiments may have reorganised their resources the reconnaissance regiment was basically unaltered throughout the campaign.

Total personnel
Lieutenant colonel
Major, second in command
4 X Major
Captain, adjutant
Captain, Technical Officer
6 X Captain
26 X Subaltern
Quartermaster

Regimental Serjeant Major
Regimental Quartermaster Serjeant
Mechanist Quartermaster Serjeant
4 X Squadron Serjeant Major

4 X squadron quartermaster serjeant
3 X serjeant mechanist
orderly room serjeant clerk
provost serjeant
signal serjeant
transport serjeant
serjeant technical storeman
61 X serjeant

107 X corporal
567 X trooper

Total 796

Plus
Medical Officer RAMC
shoemaker RAOC
4 X armourer REME
15 X cook ACC

Trades included
4 X carpenter and joiner
8 X clerk
131 X driver mechanics
95 X driver operator
2 X electrician
2 X equipment repairer
4 X gun fitter
5 X storeman (technical)
12 X vehicle mechanics

14 X batman
20 X batman driver
butchery dutyman
64 X driver IC
36 X gun number
6 X intelligence duties    these pers would have been the bulk of the intelligence section
4 X medical orderly
30 X mortarmen
22 X motorcycle orderly
postman
4 X sanitary dutyman
5 X storeman
3 X transport corporal

Total vehicles
55 X motorcycle
1 X car 4 seater 4 X 4
10 X car 5cwt 4 X 4 (jeep)
12 X 15cwt GS
4 X 15cwt water
33 X armoured 15cwt
22 X 3ton 4 X 4
12 X Loyd Carrier
69 X Universal Carrier
28 X armoured car
24 X light reconnaissance car


Organisation.
The regimental headquarters of a reconnaissance regiment was designed to allow the Commanding Officer to form a small command group which could operate on the move in a fluid situation. It would need to be far enough forward to maintain contact with the reconnaissance squadrons while remaining in contact with divisional headquarters. The heart of the command group was the two armoured 15cwt trucks which might be White 4 X 4 or halftracks. They would normally be accompanied by another armoured 15cwt which was a signal truck and could be used as a command vehicle. Nearby there would also be a Royal Signals armoured 15cwt with a rear link set to Division Headquarters. The Commanding Officer had the Humber 4 X 4 car as his transport for long journeys and for use as an office or sleeping vehicle. When away from the headquarters he could use the jeep or Light Reconnaissance Car as appropriate.

The office truck, 15cwt GS and regimental police would normally form a separate headquarters group

Car 4 seater 4 X 4 (Humber FWD).
Commanding Officer, batman, driver IC
Light Reconnaissance Car
driver operator, driver mechanic
For the Commanding Officers use in action.
Car 5cwt 4 X 4 (jeep)
signaller, driver operator
From the signal troop for the Commanding Officers use.


Light Reconnaissance Car
Technical Officer, driver operator, batman driver
15cwt 4 X 4 armoured truck
Major, Captain Adjutant, 2 X driver operator, batman driver
Car 5cwt 4 X 4 (jeep)
signaller, driver operator
From the signal troop for the second in commands use.
15cwt 4 X 4 armoured truck
Regimental Serjeant Major, serjeant orderly room clerk, 2 X clerk, intelligence trooper, driver IC
Armoured car
Subaltern, driver operator, driver mechanic  this is most likely the vehicle used by the Intelligence Officer in operations

Motorcycle
provost serjeant
Motorcycle
intelligence serjeant
Motorcycle
intelligence trooper
Motorcycle
intelligence trooper
Motorcycle
intelligence trooper
Motorcycle
intelligence trooper
Motorcycle
intelligence trooper

15cwt GS
serjeant cook, 2 X cook, driver IC
15cwt 4 X 4 armoured truck
Medical Officer, medical officers orderly, driver IC

The home defence of Canada is discussed in Volume 1 of the Official History of the Canadian Army in the Second World War, which is available as a PDF at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/oh-ho/detail-eng.asp?BfBookLang=1&BfId=27

Some extracts from that publication follow.

Home Defence at its Peak

The numerical strength of Pacific Command reached its peak in the spring and early summer of 1943; on 12 June, 34,316 all ranks of the Active Army* were stationed within its boundaries.  Headquarters Pacific Command was located at Vancouver, having moved from Esquimalt on 30 November 1942. The Command was organized in four main subordinate areas, as follows. The Vancouver Island area was commanded by the G.O.C. 6th Canadian Division, who in March had under his command the 13th Infantry Brigade at Nanaimo and the 18th Infantry Brigade at Port Alberni, while the troops of the Victoria-Esquimalt fortress, including three infantry battalions and a reconnaissance regiment, provided, with the fixed defences, rather more than the equivalent of a third brigade group. The Northern British Columbia area was commanded by the G.O.C. 8th Division, who had the 14th Infantry Brigade at Terrace and the 16th Infantry Brigade at Prince George, in addition to the Prince Rupert Defences, which included two infantry battalions. The third area was Vancouver Defences, which had two infantry battalions under command in addition to its artillery units. The fourth subordinate command was the Command reserve, consisting of the 19th Infantry Brigade, at Vernon. This location, well back in the interior, with good communications both north and south, would allow the brigade to move rapidly to any threatened point on the coast. All told, there were 21 infantry battalions in the Command. One of these, the 3rd Battalion, Regina Rifle Regiment, became during the summer the 2nd Airfield Defence Battalion and absorbed the Aerodrome Defence Companies protecting the various R.C.A.F. stations.

Disbandment of the Home Defence Divisions,
1943-1944

The three home defence divisions, the 6th, 7th and 8th, were never complete in all arms and services. They did not need to be, for they were designed to operate within the framework of a static organization already existing. This meant that the services of the Commands and Military Districts were available to assist them; it also meant that the artillery of the fixed defences, and other permanent installations, could support them in operations. Thus their establishments were never as complete as those of field divisions. Nor were the establishments ever quite full. On 17 April 1943, the 7th Division was deficient 97 officers and 3738 other ranks; the 6th and 8th Divisions were short approximately 1200 and 1100 all ranks respectively.

These three divisions had been composed in great part of men called up for compulsory home-defence service under the National Resources Mobilization Act. Thus on 10 April 1943 the "other rank" strength of the Active Army in Canada, in its major components, was as follows:

Formation                                                              Total Strength    N.R.M.A. Strength
6th Division.......................................................... 11,4628              8,165
7th Division.......................................................... 10,782                7,058
8th Division.......................................................... 8,069                  5,401
Units on Garrison Duty........................................ 31,989                17,342

It will be seen that, although a very high proportion of the troops on homedefence duty were N.R.M.A. men, the formations and units thus employed also absorbed many General Service volunteers. Nevertheless, age or medical category made a considerable proportion of the latter ineligible for overseas service. (it is possible that your uncle may have been included in this latter category of General Service volunteers and that may be one possible reason for not going overseas earlier.  With changes in circumstances, i.e. improvement of a medical condition or the Army deciding that what was previously disqualifying no longer mattered, previously ineligible men were sent overseas.)  In the course of 1943 the threat to Canada's shores, never really very great, receded further. The summer saw the expulsion of the Japanese from the Aleutian Islands (below, Chapter XV; while on the other coast the submarine threat, serious in the early months of 1942, had also become considerably less important. This situation permitted, and common sense dictated, a reduction in the number of men tied up in protective duties in Canada. As early as 13 May the Cabinet War Committee approved a prospective reduction in home war establishments, to take effect on 1 September, which would involve disbanding "five or six" infantry battalions in Canada. On 30 August the Chief of the General Staff reported that "substantial reductions" in the forces on both coasts were now practicable, and he recommended the disbandment of the 7th and 8th Divisions, plus reductions in coast and antiaircraft defences and other economies. The total cut in establishment was 20,873 all ranks. It would be carried out by transferring volunteers of suitable age and category to the "reinforcement stream"; Home Defence men of suitable age and category for overseas service would be transferred to other units in Canada, in order to release General Service personnel (for overseas duty) and lower category personnel (for return to civilian occupations).183 Since operational troops in Canada were so far below authorized establishments, the actual reduction in strength would be about 14,000. These proposals were approved by the War Committee on 31 August.  On 13 September the Minister of National Defence announced the decision, explaining that the plan was to disband the 7th and 8th Divisions completely and the 6th Division in part. Three brigade groups were to be retained, "each capable of operating independently", and to be "administered and trained under a modified Divisional Headquarters." The formation of the Training Brigade Group in Eastern Canada (see above, page 135) was announced at the same time.

This announcement's timing was bad, as it coincided with a setback at Salerno and the United States Congress was debating a bill to draft fathers of children; and the press release, though long, had not made explanations particularly desirable for American consumption. Perhaps through fear of domestic misunderstandings, the important point that disbanding the divisions would release men for employment abroad was not clearly made, although the continuing need for General Service recruits was emphasized. The result was considerable criticism in the United States, where it was made to appear that Canada was simply taking advantage of a favourable turn in the war to disband a considerable proportion of her army and send thousands of her soldiers home.  A supplementary release, issued on 14 September,186 explained that the changes meant no modification of the Army's overseas programme, and that "every man of category suitable for operational duties" would be retained; but it is doubtful if this undid the damage.

Under the new arrangement the reorganized 6th Division was to consist of three brigade groups, each of four (not three) battalions. The model was the American organization used in the Aleutian campaign, and the 13th Infantry Brigade Group, then at Kiska (see below, Chapter XV), was to be one of the three. Divisional headquarters moved from Esquimalt to Prince George in October. Its primary purpose was now defined as coordinating the training and administration of the three brigade groups, which themselves were directly under Headquarters Pacific Command but dealt with Headquarters 6th Division in matters of training and local administration. The new organization was designed to permit the use of one or more of the brigade groups in"further operations against the Japanese in the North Pacific Area" in cooperation with United States forces;187 but these operations never came to pass (below, page 507).

There were more changes in the 6th Division in 1944. The 13th Brigade returned from Kiska in January. In May, it was sent overseas, its units completed with General Service men. An energetic but only partially successful effort had been made to prevail upon N.R.M.A. personnel of the battalions to "go Active" on the basis of their units going overseas as such. In the United Kingdom it was converted into a training brigade.  In August, the Division was reorganized on a basis of three infantry brigades, each of three battalions, a new 16th Brigade being formed to replace the 13th.  In the autumn came the "reinforcement crisis". On 16 November the Chief of the General Staff (Lieut.-General J. C. Murchie) informed the Minister that, having reviewed the matter in the light of the urgent need to free fit men for overseas, he now recommended reorganizing the 6th Division as one infantry brigade group and two infantry brigades. The divisional headquarters would be disbanded. The Cabinet approved these proposals on 21 November, and the divisional headquarters ceased to exist on 2 December.  The circumstances, however, were now changing very rapidly. The Government's decision of 22 November to send 16,000 N.R.M.A. soldiers overseas altered the whole situation. The units in which these men, long regarded as a potential reserve for the overseas army, were serving, were now no longer required from this point of view, and any menace to Canadian territory had ceased to exist. Under the new policy, there was no reason why the units that had composed the Division (less men not physically fit) should not be sent overseas as units, and this was done. The disbanded Division and unbrigaded infantry battalions provided two brigade headquarters, nine infantry battalions and a reconnaissance regiment from Western Canada, and four infantry battalions from Eastern Canada, to go overseas. In the United Kingdom they were broken up and the personnel used as reinforcements. Only eight infantry battalions were now retained for duty in Canada, Newfoundland and the West Indies.

. . . . .  He was in the army in BC for about 3 1/2 years before he was sent to the UK so I assumed he must have been doing something useful besides training. He wasn't a conscript and was willing to go O/S.  . . . . .

And what do you think the Canada Army was doing in the United Kingdom for those years before they were sent to Italy and France?  Training is usually a primary activity of any army, then and now, during wartime and peacetime - it is especially more important during war when the army in question is comprised mainly of "non-professionals".

 

[dollard]

Thanks guys for making me a little less clueless.

 

[mikewalker28]

Thanks guys for making me a little less clueless.

Read your post about your uncle

This page might be usefull to you 

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/organization/specialforces/pcmr.htm

No. 5 Company Port Alberni Alberni, Great Central Lake, Franklin River E.T. Cox, MM

I live in the great central lake area, and have a mother in law that used to work in the local museum if you want, next time I'm in town I could pop in and take a look through old archives for you do you have a name - birthday for him.

If he was at great central lake during that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Alberni

Great Central lake was actually a small lake which is now off of the #1 highway heading towards tofino BC if he was situated at the lake there's a good chance he was mining at della-falls base camp, if he was not in the military at the time.  which is one of the highest water falls in north america, I run the water taxi - hiking service going there. Jim Drink water was the person in charge of the mining operation from 1910 - Onward i belive.

I can talk to the owner of the area where i live now which is at the lake and see if he can dig up some old pictures etc, I can also speak with his son who is actually an old boy but is a very close friend of my father in laws he might have old resident archives of who lived at the lake - worked in the area and was in the military during the 40s.  and who knows mabie your uncle is in a few of the pictures, or archives I hope you're still keeping up with this post seems like an interesting little research project and i'd be more than willing to help you out!

Also Long Beach is a zone of beach tofino - uculet, one of the best surfing spots on the island actually ;O Is he first nations ? That might make your research allot easier to come bye, at the time there was a military air base, located in tofino, he might have been at, and a military seaplane base in uculet.


A SHORT HISTORY OF ABANDONED AND DOWNSIZED CANADIAN MILITARY BASES
http://www.reocities.com/Pentagon/quarters/2529/

might help you with your research