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........and so there is no mistake, I joined the Legion in '72, as an Ordinary, and am still a member.
Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
- Thread starter George Wallace
- Start date
- Reaction score
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sheikyerbouti said:
Thats a rather arrogant comment. Our services? I thought the Legion was an organisation started by Veterans in the first place, mate you don't owe us any favours. That being said, your dedication to the RCL is appreciated.
I view the RCL branches as a dismal organisation at best. Every single one I've been to is in need of a re-fit/upgrade/modernisation, and are dull and boring places.
How many Vets in their 70s and 80s now want to go out for a drink, travel long distances or navigate crap neighbourhoods?
The Legion in my opinion is dying, and they should have seen this 30 yrs back as the WW1 Vets were dying off. The Regina No.1 Branch is pathetic, the same furniture and fixtures for over 30 yrs. I avoided the RCL at all costs shy of 11 Nov. Why, they had nothing to offer me, except a small cliquiey bunch of dye-hard local swillers, who chain smoked up a storm, and looked down at their noses with us. No younger groups, nothing!
In 2004, I presented the Regina RCL a plaque, and the place had not changed a bit, and it was all but empty, on the verge of closing. It stunk. urinal cakes, stale urine, stale beer, and smoke, appeared unclean and was a real fizzer. A small kiosk next to the 1950s vintage toilets which was unmanned.
In 2008 I was to the Sask Command HQ which was a small musty dark dismal office from the 1960s, located in an unattractive run down building, in a dirty high crime neighbourhood (5th Ave, Regina). Poor parking and a total turn-off, and one single woman employee was all there was. Sad!
The Australian RSL seen problems coming decades ago, and every RSL I've been to is a prosperous and vibrant place, which knows how to make money, and preserve the ANZAC spirit. Ther torch was passed from the WW1 Vets to the WW2 and Korean Vets, then now on to the Viet Nam Vets (mainly in their 60s now), and even now the Iraq (I am in my 50s) and Afghan Vets are getting involved. The culture is alive well and grows not only in numbers, but spirit.
The general public too, feel as special bond as many of their fathers and uncles, etc have served, and they sign up with pride. The politics between the RSL and the ADF community is brilliant, and the anti-culture that seems to breed between the RCL and the CF is simply not there.
As ANZAC Day fast approaches this coming Sunday, my local branch wil be overflowing from public support, Veterans, Cadets and a ADF presence. RSLs even run private buses to pick and drop off members at their homes, for free! Subsidised meals and drinks for members with great weekly draws for excellent prizes.
Again the culture between the RSL, and non-veteran citizens could not be more positive and supportive.
I'll be sure to post some pics from this Sunday.
My two cents.
Here is a few websites which I encourage you and others to examine and learn from.
National organisation http://www.rsl.org.au/
Caloundra RSL on the mainland an hour's drive from here http://www.caloundrarsl.com.au/
My local RSL here on the Island http://www.bribiersl.com.au/
Finally, when I used to live in Sydney's south, in Cronulla http://www.cronullarsl.com.au/
OWDU
J
jollyjacktar
Guest
Sheik, I was a member of the Legion many years ago. The Branch where I grew up was mostly populated by the as OWDU stated the local heavy drinkers. It was kind of a rough place and was not overly attractive. I have not been back to my home town since the early 90's but I am sure nothing has changed in that regard. I gave up my membership following the death of my Dad. He was an alcoholic and it killed him. I did not want to see more of that kind of drinking from the others. No, I don't blame the RCL for his drinking, but it was a place where he and the others would frequent.
Nowadays, my closest Branch is about 40 km away. Too far to make a habit of it, especially with the RCMP Det between there and home. If I intend to have more than one or two drinks, I'll do it at home.
Nowadays, my closest Branch is about 40 km away. Too far to make a habit of it, especially with the RCMP Det between there and home. If I intend to have more than one or two drinks, I'll do it at home.
- Reaction score
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- Points
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Gee another Legion bashing thread and it's not even Nov 11th yet. I'm with Recce, Mr. O'Leary, OWDU and Pet on this and yeah for the record I'm an ordinary member too.
The Legion as an organization brought this on decades ago. As the WW1 and WW2 vets stopped for the most part running the branches, commands etc. and the Associate and now Affiliate members took over. For reasons not known to me some branches even discouraged the newer generations of potential "Ordinary Members", the Cold warriors, the Peace Keepers etc from joining.
End result a defensive self righteous little clique of never served types now run the place. My Branch is nothing but a subsidized little drinking and card/darts club. The President is a joke and only concerned with moving up in the Legion hierarchy. He's incompetent, petty and vindictive. The Vice and soon to be President appears to have no interest in any of the traditions and raison d'etre of the RCL. Hell getting him to actually wear Legion Blues and Greys for meeting or show for a parade (Nov 11th etc) is a major undertaking. He looks at the place as his large personal Man Cave, a social club for him and cronies to enjoy their retirement.
Meetings are a joke attending by less than 30 members, which is double what showed up for Remembrance Day last year, and this from a branch with an established membership of over 450. None of them understand the protocol of how to run a meeting, nor care. The books form what I can tell are a mess. They don't need a mananger to steal the cash box here, the inability to organize a two car funeral with a picture book of instructions will ensure this branch goes under.
And before you ask why I don't do something, I've tried. All that's got me, is bruised face from banging my head against a concrete pillar and looks and comments of resentment because I'm not a member of their little clique(s). Add to that I'm one of those who actually put a friggin uniform.
Latest bit was the call I received yesterday from our VSO (Veterans Service Officer) who is one of the few WW2 vets still active in the branch. He was advising me that effective immediately by order of our esteemed Branch President, all visits to our few vets in hospitals and old age homes my members ( 3-4 of us) were to cease. Yup that's right a branch of the RCL has decided that it can't be bothered to check up on it's own elderly members to make sure they're ok.
Personally if the old character who stormed Juno Beach tells me to stop popping by once month to see how he's doing and watch a movie with him on the VCR I bought him, fine. But some twit who's only tenuous connection the military is he's the son of someone who defended Borden from potential Japanese Invasion in 1944 tells me to, frig him. I guess from now on I'll wear Regimental Association blazer when I go and visit.
The Legion as an organization brought this on decades ago. As the WW1 and WW2 vets stopped for the most part running the branches, commands etc. and the Associate and now Affiliate members took over. For reasons not known to me some branches even discouraged the newer generations of potential "Ordinary Members", the Cold warriors, the Peace Keepers etc from joining.
End result a defensive self righteous little clique of never served types now run the place. My Branch is nothing but a subsidized little drinking and card/darts club. The President is a joke and only concerned with moving up in the Legion hierarchy. He's incompetent, petty and vindictive. The Vice and soon to be President appears to have no interest in any of the traditions and raison d'etre of the RCL. Hell getting him to actually wear Legion Blues and Greys for meeting or show for a parade (Nov 11th etc) is a major undertaking. He looks at the place as his large personal Man Cave, a social club for him and cronies to enjoy their retirement.
Meetings are a joke attending by less than 30 members, which is double what showed up for Remembrance Day last year, and this from a branch with an established membership of over 450. None of them understand the protocol of how to run a meeting, nor care. The books form what I can tell are a mess. They don't need a mananger to steal the cash box here, the inability to organize a two car funeral with a picture book of instructions will ensure this branch goes under.
And before you ask why I don't do something, I've tried. All that's got me, is bruised face from banging my head against a concrete pillar and looks and comments of resentment because I'm not a member of their little clique(s). Add to that I'm one of those who actually put a friggin uniform.
Latest bit was the call I received yesterday from our VSO (Veterans Service Officer) who is one of the few WW2 vets still active in the branch. He was advising me that effective immediately by order of our esteemed Branch President, all visits to our few vets in hospitals and old age homes my members ( 3-4 of us) were to cease. Yup that's right a branch of the RCL has decided that it can't be bothered to check up on it's own elderly members to make sure they're ok.
Personally if the old character who stormed Juno Beach tells me to stop popping by once month to see how he's doing and watch a movie with him on the VCR I bought him, fine. But some twit who's only tenuous connection the military is he's the son of someone who defended Borden from potential Japanese Invasion in 1944 tells me to, frig him. I guess from now on I'll wear Regimental Association blazer when I go and visit.
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 210
My Dad has no desire to go to the Legion any more and He is a past President of the local branch. He always stated that it should be for Vets and retired service men and women only. It should be an exclusive club and the only way to gain entry is to serve your country with Honour.
Their mission should be
1) Support other Vets and their families.
2) Make aware the sacrifice made by all vets by educating the children of this generation
3) Support soldiers and families from the local area on current mission.
4) Support the Cadet movement
Not become a socail dart and drinking club for children and grand children of vets.
Their mission should be
1) Support other Vets and their families.
2) Make aware the sacrifice made by all vets by educating the children of this generation
3) Support soldiers and families from the local area on current mission.
4) Support the Cadet movement
Not become a socail dart and drinking club for children and grand children of vets.
- Reaction score
- 1,505
- Points
- 1,260
I've always enjoyed statistics ( I know what Benjamin Disraeli had to say about them ).
RCL "Memberhip statistical reports":
http://legion.ca/Membership/reports_e.cfm
From Wikipedia:
"Historically the Legion Hall was the social centre of many Canadian towns. This was especially the case in the provinces with severe restrictions on the sale of alcohol, rules from which the legions were generally exempt."
The area I live in was dry until 2000, so I can relate to that. Now, there's a bar on every other corner.
"The law governing liability for the intoxicated has changed dramatically":
http://www.cap-insurance.com/docs_public/Canadian%20Alcohol%20Liability%20Study.pdf
With the introduction of "smoke free" by-laws in bars, there was discussion that the RCL might be exempted from the new rule.
That did not happen, so the RCL did not get the business of smokers when bars went no smoking.
"I come here for the socializing. My friends don't show up any more because of the non-smoking. So I come in less and less.":
http://carleton.ca/Capital_News/02112001/feature.shtml
The story ( 2001 ) reports that 62.3% of RCL were over the age of 55.
"Dismayed that Legion Halls are included among the places where smoking will be banned effective May 31, 2006, veterans are among the most vocal critics of the new law.":
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1118256271906_113665471/?hub=CTVNewsAt11
Another sad story:
"Branch president Yvonne Lortie said costs associated with allowing alcohol on the premises make up a large chunk of the legion’s monthly expenses.
“We might get rid of the liquor licence,” she said.":
http://www.saultstar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1719043
RCL "Memberhip statistical reports":
http://legion.ca/Membership/reports_e.cfm
From Wikipedia:
"Historically the Legion Hall was the social centre of many Canadian towns. This was especially the case in the provinces with severe restrictions on the sale of alcohol, rules from which the legions were generally exempt."
The area I live in was dry until 2000, so I can relate to that. Now, there's a bar on every other corner.
"The law governing liability for the intoxicated has changed dramatically":
http://www.cap-insurance.com/docs_public/Canadian%20Alcohol%20Liability%20Study.pdf
With the introduction of "smoke free" by-laws in bars, there was discussion that the RCL might be exempted from the new rule.
That did not happen, so the RCL did not get the business of smokers when bars went no smoking.
"I come here for the socializing. My friends don't show up any more because of the non-smoking. So I come in less and less.":
http://carleton.ca/Capital_News/02112001/feature.shtml
The story ( 2001 ) reports that 62.3% of RCL were over the age of 55.
"Dismayed that Legion Halls are included among the places where smoking will be banned effective May 31, 2006, veterans are among the most vocal critics of the new law.":
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1118256271906_113665471/?hub=CTVNewsAt11
Another sad story:
"Branch president Yvonne Lortie said costs associated with allowing alcohol on the premises make up a large chunk of the legion’s monthly expenses.
“We might get rid of the liquor licence,” she said.":
http://www.saultstar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1719043
- Reaction score
- 1,395
- Points
- 1,160
I was an Ordinary member of the RCL in Wpg. My Branch was clean, fairly modern, friendly, but sans past serving members of the military. Agree with OWDU, and some of the others critical of the RCL.
I personally think we have the RCL, with it's never served executive at various levels, to thank for the New Veterans Charter. And of course, VAC. With it's client base of WWI Vets dead, the WWII and Korea Vets in their 80's to 90's, a annual operating budget of at least $1 Billion, thousands of employees, trips overseas in commemoration (more VAC pers than Vets), what else could VAC do but make everyone a Vet except Cadets. You really don't think it was done to help us do you. In keeping with it's policy VAC just wanted to piss off and frustrate new generations of ex Cdn military.
jolleyjacktar: The RCL was in an old Safeway building wasn't it???
I personally think we have the RCL, with it's never served executive at various levels, to thank for the New Veterans Charter. And of course, VAC. With it's client base of WWI Vets dead, the WWII and Korea Vets in their 80's to 90's, a annual operating budget of at least $1 Billion, thousands of employees, trips overseas in commemoration (more VAC pers than Vets), what else could VAC do but make everyone a Vet except Cadets. You really don't think it was done to help us do you. In keeping with it's policy VAC just wanted to piss off and frustrate new generations of ex Cdn military.
They were called Zombies during the war.
jolleyjacktar: The RCL was in an old Safeway building wasn't it???
- Reaction score
- 1,395
- Points
- 1,160
RCL by War Service
WW1 1
WW2 26,430
Korea 2,548
Gulf 8,473
Total 37,452
Does Canada have that many Gulf War Vets?
WW1 1
WW2 26,430
Korea 2,548
Gulf 8,473
Total 37,452
Does Canada have that many Gulf War Vets?
- Reaction score
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- Points
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While this is mere speculation, is it possible that those numbers the Legion are using got the Gulf as a catch-all for all operations conducted in the 1990s?
Edit - As Journayman points out below, the kinds of Ops I'm thinking of are the Bosnia/Somolia/Croatia-types of missions, since they are not showing up on the chart the gentleman posted.
I am not saying that is what the Legion has done, but it does seem odd that if ~4,000 CF soldiers were involved in the Gulf that the number for Legion members from the Gulf is over double that (but they don't show other theatres in the same timeframe).
Edit - As Journayman points out below, the kinds of Ops I'm thinking of are the Bosnia/Somolia/Croatia-types of missions, since they are not showing up on the chart the gentleman posted.
I am not saying that is what the Legion has done, but it does seem odd that if ~4,000 CF soldiers were involved in the Gulf that the number for Legion members from the Gulf is over double that (but they don't show other theatres in the same timeframe).
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...like Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo :Petamocto said:
Over 4000 CF personnel, including a Naval Task Group (Terra Nova, Athabascan, Protecteur), elements of two CF-18 squadrons and a field hospital, participated in the Gulf War.
You do realize that there's no obligation to post when you haven't a clue what you're talking about
- Reaction score
- 27,452
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I suspect the report is generated automatically - and anyone reporting that they served in 1990-91 is identified as a Gulf War vet.
Though the 08 report only states 1474 Gulf War vets. And the 07 stated 9376.
All this to say: It does not look like the Legion knows how to count (or at least not in a consistent manner).
There`s also been a precipitous decline in membership: from a high of 600K in the mid 80s (with over half being former serving) to today, with under 350K, under half of whom have former service (and of those 112K, about 42K are "unknown"- likely non-RCMP police). If we omit the"unknown", we`ve got about 20% of Legion members as former CF.
And, of course, you have to love an organization which mis-spells "Military"on their website - look at the left-hand menu, select "About the Legion", then look at the penultimate entry "Miltary Heritage".
Though the 08 report only states 1474 Gulf War vets. And the 07 stated 9376.
All this to say: It does not look like the Legion knows how to count (or at least not in a consistent manner).
There`s also been a precipitous decline in membership: from a high of 600K in the mid 80s (with over half being former serving) to today, with under 350K, under half of whom have former service (and of those 112K, about 42K are "unknown"- likely non-RCMP police). If we omit the"unknown", we`ve got about 20% of Legion members as former CF.
And, of course, you have to love an organization which mis-spells "Military"on their website - look at the left-hand menu, select "About the Legion", then look at the penultimate entry "Miltary Heritage".
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
Journeyman said:
You just said yourself that ~4,000 Canadians served in the Gulf.
The gentleman above posted that there are ~8,500 members from that theatre.
Since nowhere near 100% (let alone 200%+) people who go to a theatre join the Legion, how would you like to suggest they came to the number of ~8,500 if they are not including other operations?
The ops you mentioned are exactly the kind that I am talking about, because what the gentleman posted didn't make mention of other theatres in that time frame.
- Reaction score
- 6
- Points
- 430
I have to say, I've had nothing but good experiences with our provincial legions... admitedly, they're primarily composed of associate members, but still nothing but good experiences... major support of the cadet movement, organizing local parades for all major memorial events, firm support of vets and serving troops....
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I wouldn't.Petamocto said:
You see....
- I don't know the answer so I won't waste bandwidth or readers' time,
- I have no compulsion to post, unlike some who apparently believe MilPoints have cash value (in person, these tend to be the same people whose self-delusions of intellect and popularity cause them to monopolize conversations), and
- I'm familiar with the expression "stay in your lane"; this one's not mine.
I now return you to the Legion-bashing thread.
For disclosure, I was a Legion member; my membership lapsed many years ago and I haven't missed it a bit.
- Reaction score
- 6
- Points
- 430
WW1 1
WW2 26,430
Korea 2,548
Gulf 8,473
Total 37,452
If someone served in both the Second World War and Korea, how are they counted? Or have they been counted twice?
WW2 26,430
Korea 2,548
Gulf 8,473
Total 37,452
If someone served in both the Second World War and Korea, how are they counted? Or have they been counted twice?
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
Journey,
I apologize if you took it that I was going outside my lanes or I offended you.
It was meant as a way to possibly explain it; nothing more.
I have changed my original post to reflect that there seems to be a discrepency with ~4,000 vets from there and ~8,500 vets from there, and it is mere speculation as to how the Legion is posting the numbers they are.
Cheers, and sorry.
I apologize if you took it that I was going outside my lanes or I offended you.
It was meant as a way to possibly explain it; nothing more.
I have changed my original post to reflect that there seems to be a discrepency with ~4,000 vets from there and ~8,500 vets from there, and it is mere speculation as to how the Legion is posting the numbers they are.
Cheers, and sorry.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Here is the Regina Legion's website. http://www.reginalegion.ca/home Aside from learning about the ladies Auxilliery being established in 1930, the site has nothing to offer, with the last 'event' scheduled for September 2009, almost 9 months ago.
Like I said, pathetic. Even the website is dead.
My local RSL is on an island with a population of just 16,000, and Regina is a capital city with a population of 200,000.
Gotta make a run into Brisbane for work, nearly 0540h now.
Cheers,
OWDU
Like I said, pathetic. Even the website is dead.
My local RSL is on an island with a population of just 16,000, and Regina is a capital city with a population of 200,000.
Gotta make a run into Brisbane for work, nearly 0540h now.
Cheers,
OWDU
- Reaction score
- 114
- Points
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Rifleman62 said:
Perhaps the "Gulf" numbers include identified "91 Gulf War vets" and "post Sept 2001 identified Gulf Region" Vets? Perhaps identified as "Gulf" because we have TFA, CM, Iraq & Arabian Gulf pers in those numbers?
Just my thoughts ... ???
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