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Who should own CAS & why it can't be trusted to an Air Force (from A-10 retirement thread)

That is simply taking the evolution of smart weapons to the logical conclusion.

It essentially counters arguments that you can only provide CAS with highly specialized airplanes. Realistically, you want transports to be doing transport etc. and for responsive and affordable support you should probably substitute a cloud of UCAVs for single attack aircraft.
 
A battle field is a complex, chaotic environment; that goes without saying.  Contacts are both brief and savage yet the comments read as if everyone is standing around a sandbox shifting little plastic models around according to a computer generated scenario gaming 'what if's'.  When the guy at the pointed end of the action requires support it is likely that he requires it about 20 seconds before he asked.  Having to call and ask and then wait (even a minute) for an aircraft to be re-assigned to help out just isn't going to work.  Further, assuming the closest aircraft suitably armed is heading for a high-value target i.e. a just-located command and control hdq. or field battery what chance does the chap on the ground have of securing immediate support?  It will more likely be a "I'll be right back, don't go away" type of reply. 

It is distinctly possible that a future opposition may be similarly armed and equipped as our own forces: witness Ukraine where both sides initially drew their equipment from the same manufacturer.  Do you really want to rely on some stand-off weapons system at 10,000 feet to provide close-in support at 100 yards or would you prefer that the support visually acquire the target before commencing fire?  If I recall, Tarnak farm involved an F-16 and a Lazar guided bomb from altitude further.  Finally, it would be a brave commander, not looking for career advancement that would commit an F-35 into the range of hand-held ground to air munitions.  It isn't going to happen. 

We love to talk about smart munitions and how new systems are far more cost efficient but wars do not contribute to a balanced budget.  Having multiple uses for a system may sound good in theory but as soon as you add a second purpose you simultaneously establish a priority order and I guarantee that CAS is not number one on any tasking list for any of F-16, F-18, F-35, F-22, B52 etc. etc. 

Finally, and to get back to the topic, if you want CAS now, then you had better own it, otherwise, you are number 2. 
 
YZT580:

Finally, and to get back to the topic, if you want CAS now, then you had better own it, otherwise, you are number 2.
 

Precisely the thinking of USMC --though one wonders how really happy they will be with the F-35B's optional gun with just 220 rounds:
http://www.gd-ots.com/armament_systems/ags_F-35.html
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f-35b-lightning-ii-joint-strike-fighter-stovl-variant/

AV-8B's 25mm gun has 300 rounds:
http://www.military.cz/usa/air/in_service/aircraft/av8b/av8b_en.htm

Mark
Ottawa

 
YZT580 said:
Having to call and ask and then wait (even a minute) for an aircraft to be re-assigned to help out just isn't going to work.

Regardless of the nature, source, and ownership of the delivery platform there is going to be a wait involved.

YZT580 said:
Do you really want to rely on some stand-off weapons system at 10,000 feet to provide close-in support at 100 yards or would you prefer that the support visually acquire the target before commencing fire?  If I recall, Tarnak farm involved an F-16 and a Lazar guided bomb from altitude further.

How much of a visual assessment do you think happens as an aircraft whizzes in at 300 knots/560 km/hr and lets loose with a cannon burst from over a kilometre away (A10)? We lost Mark Graham and had another bunch of guys wounded in September 2006 when an A10 shot up their platoon.

Crap will happen regardless of what is being used, but there is a much better chance of positively identifying a target using IR and then engaging it from distance, be that vertical or horizontal.

YZT580 said:
Finally, and to get back to the topic, if you want CAS now, then you had better own it, otherwise, you are number 2.

Even if it has your national markings on it, it's going to be a pooled resource that will be used on the highest-priority target, just as artillery will be.
 
I can't believe we are still talking about this

The Air Force has their processes and we have ours, rather than each service calling each other useless lets focus on working together to achieve some sort of common ground. 

We can argue about CF18's performing CAS all day long when in reality we should be directing our attention to why we don't have any of these:

1355031610-uk-to-look-at-attack-helicopter-capability-after-afghanistan_1665007.jpg

 
Cobras would probably also be acceptable. See, no single source contracts!
 
PuckChaser said:
Cobras would probably also be acceptable. See, no single source contracts!

Throw in a Tiger as well to appease the anti-american crowd :-D
 
Or buy the Apache from Agusta-Westland with Rolls-Royce engines.
 
Cut the F-35 order by 12, since shiny jets won't do CAS, and buy scary attack helicopters.
 
PuckChaser said:
Cut the F-35 order by 12, since shiny jets won't do CAS, and buy scary attack helicopters.

Or cut the F35 order by 60, buy a cheaper jet (accepting the already accepted reality that air superiority will be based on US capabilities for expeditionary ops) for a domestic role only, and equip each CMBG with AH and buy a GBAD capability.

 
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa there Bird_Gunner.....let's not be flying off in a tangent, making logical, sensible, cost effective arguments!! 

Pffftttt...

ARMED helicopters??  What do you think this is, the military??  And Wowa...did you suggest the ability for ground forces to have an air defence capability??  Are you high right now??  That's just crazy talk. 

Maybe if we were a G7 country and a member of NATO, your arguments might make more sense.  But the ability of ground forces to actually defend themselves from hostile aircraft??  No f#%kin way....that's even possible!? 
 
Having to call and ask and then wait (even a minute) for an aircraft to be re-assigned to help out just isn't going to work.  Further, assuming the closest aircraft suitably armed is heading for a high-value target i.e. a just-located command and control hdq. or field battery what chance does the chap on the ground have of securing immediate support?  It will more likely be a "I'll be right back, don't go away" type of reply. 

I'm not sure I understand YZT but its highly unlikely that you're going to have a/c on station for your entire op. One thing that I think gets lost is although it'd be nice to have a/c on station there's usually only 1 guy in the Coy Gp who is controlling them, they can go for quite awhile but sooner or later that dude is going to need rest.

Targets on the ground get hit with various sorts of bombs, PGMs and missiles, but they are never strafed.

Absolutely, 100% false. I'm a huge fan of PGM's but at the end of the day the Risk Estimate Distances (REDs) for strafing are still significantly smaller than any of the PGM's mentioned. When guys get into a close fight its most likely that the JTAC (with the GFC concurrence) are going to go to guns for that exact reason. As with everything there's mitigating circumstances but to say nobody strafes anymore cause its not on YouTube would be extremely misinformed.
 
PuckChaser said:
Cut the F-35 order by 12, since shiny jets won't do CAS, and buy scary attack helicopters.

They will do CAS, probably better than anything there is right now.

Bird Gunner:  why exactly do we need GBAD is the US is going to gain and maintain Air Superiority/Supremacy for us?  You are contradicting yourself.

rampage:  Right on for RED.  The advertised CEP of a Paveway II is 12 feet.  JDAM is 20 feet.  Add the blast to that.

20/25/30mm is much more accurate (dispersion is minimal) and the blast is much smaller making it a much better weapon for high collateral damage targets.
 
SSM, I get where you're coming from. Being high speed, low drag means you'd like to be the wherewithal for everything but transport.

Try to understand the morale factor for the guys on the ground.

I'd rather have CAS as part of my Ats & Dets, rather than being told "Roger 49C, you're next in line".

Try put yourself on the ground and in the shit. Perhaps you'll gain some perspective.
 
SupersonicMax said:
Bird Gunner:  why exactly do we need GBAD is the US is going to gain and maintain Air Superiority/Supremacy for us?  You are contradicting yourself.

Because not all air threats are other jets.

Will the F-35s be shooting down cruise missiles, UAVs of Predator size or below and RAM in addition to doing their A2A thing while transiting across the battlefield on their way to an important target and taking time out to do CAS?

Those are going to be some busy planes.  If we don't have the US doing air superiority for us then the Canadian planes will have to do all that.  If the US are doing it, why do we need air to air capability outside of NORAD?
 
I have some perspective from the ground side.  I participated in AOC and I spent some time in the field with JTACs.  What I noticed is a lack of perspective from their side on Air Employment. 

Assets in current theaters are already controlled by the ACC and it seems to be working.  If an asset is to be used for CAS and CAS only, maybe they should be given to the LCC (but even then, I have my reserves when for fixed wing aircraft).

Tasking priorities should be decided at the joint level and air approportionned according to priorities.  I understand each ground commander would like to have dedicated air 24/7 and if it was possible it should be that way, however with limited ressources it's impossible. We need to keep flexible in order to achieve the "strategic", "operationnal" and "tactical" objectives (all of which a single fighter can affect).  This is the only way to assure an effiicient and effective operation.

Ammotech:  but it doesn't matter.  Those effects will be provided by the US according to BG.
 
CBH99 said:
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa there Bird_Gunner.....let's not be flying off in a tangent, making logical, sensible, cost effective arguments!! 

Pffftttt...

ARMED helicopters??  What do you think this is, the military??  And Wowa...did you suggest the ability for ground forces to have an air defence capability??  Are you high right now??  That's just crazy talk. 

Maybe if we were a G7 country and a member of NATO, your arguments might make more sense.  But the ability of ground forces to actually defend themselves from hostile aircraft??  No f#%kin way....that's even possible!?

Hang on a minute, they've already thought of that: CADPAT makes us invisible thus rendering enemy air superiority useless... right?  ;D
 
SupersonicMax said:
Ammotech:  but it doesn't matter.  Those effects will be provided by the US according to BG.

Disagree. The US will not provide intimate assets for defence of Canadian manouevre brigades IAW current doctrine. They will provide Air superiority though against fixed wing threats. Perhaps in a perfect world in a contiguous, linear battlefield, all opposition AH and smalll level UAS will fly through the US AO first for engagement by SHORAD type assets. If they dont than the Canadians have to have their own. According to what BG is that?

Jets will, however, definately be provided by the US. So, I guess if we go with your logic than the RCAF doesn't require jets?

Also, AOC has significant errors when dealing with doctrine, particularly artillery and AD doctrine, which are constantly noted by the artillery types on the course. I've also worked a great deal with the air force while doing scan eagle and can attest that the RCAF has a weak understanding of the army at the Capt-LCol level as well.

I've come to terms with the fact that you'll never admit that jets can't do everything and we require a GBAD, and have little interest in debating that any more.  However, I will say that the ACC should definately control and command anything above the CL and coordinate with the army via the ACCE and BCD in the various HQs. Army air should be restricted to SUAS and UH (and in a perfect world AH) as those are close support army assets.  The ACC should also retain the control of the AADC with an army advisor to coordinate GBAD with aerial AD and naval AD systems.
 
SupersonicMax said:
They will do CAS, probably better than anything there is right now.

Bird Gunner:  why exactly do we need GBAD is the US is going to gain and maintain Air Superiority/Supremacy for us?  You are contradicting yourself.

rampage:  Right on for RED.  The advertised CEP of a Paveway II is 12 feet.  JDAM is 20 feet.  Add the blast to that.

20/25/30mm is much more accurate (dispersion is minimal) and the blast is much smaller making it a much better weapon for high collateral damage targets.

Air superiority in terms of Fixed wing. Still remains an aviation and low level UAS threat. IPSO FACTO, still require a GBAD capability. Particularly in terms of a dispersed operation where a CMBG may find itself geographically seperated from US or allied supporting assets to combat lower level threats. So, GBAD is still required, RCAF jets, outside of Canada, outside of a "fly the flag" role, debatable....
 
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