Who was Canada‘s greatest military hero?

[Anderson56]

Good reminder Michael. I had forgotten about that. You made me think about this again, and I flashed back to Easter Weekend, when I drove past the Legislative Building and the WWI memorial. There had been a drive underway to build that memorial in the 30‘s. but the lack of money dragged it past Sept 1939, and the memorial was never built. A number of years ago, some remembered that oversight and began collecting donations. The memorial was built and dedicated, and I understand that they are now getting underway with raising funds for the WWII memorial. Hats off to those who picked up the torch, and made sure that project was completed.

On Hugh Cairns, I found the following:

The following can be found on a local website:

The earliest memorial to Hugh Cairns was erected in 1921 by the Saskatoon Football Association in what is now known as Kiwanis Park, near the University Bridge. The statue is of a footballer, Hugh Cairns, around the base are the names of the seventy-five Saskatoon football players who did not return from the great war.
The memorial was unveiled June 8th 1921, and is constructed of a 6‘ marble statue carved in Naples, Italy, set upon a 12‘ polished granite base.
The memorial is reputed to be the only war memorial in the world dedicated to soccer players. It is doubly unique considering that it is found in such a young soccer nation as Canada.

The memorial is used in the logo of the Saskatoon District Soccer Association and a representation appears on the medallions that are awarded each year to individual and team award winners. In addition, each year on November 11 members of the SDSA lay a wreath at the memorial in remembrance of those who have gone before; reminding us that it was in many cases our youth who gave the ultimate sacrifice for their country.

 

[Veteran`s son]

I‘d like to add an additional question to the thread please.

Were there gallantry medals awarded to the Royal Canadian Engineers, Royal Canadian Artillery and the Armoured regiments during World War 2?

Specifically, was the MM and the DSC awarded?

 

[Danjanou]

Veteran‘s Son

James Hendry No. 1 Tunnelling Company RCE was awarded the George Cross (posthumously) June 13, 1941 in Scotland.

For WW1 I also found an engineer VC winner. Capt. C.N.Mitchell 4th Bn Canadian Engineers(No. 1 Tunnelling Co.) was awarded it October 8, 1918.

I couldn‘t find any artillery VC or GC winners.

Armoured/Cavalary Regiments have quite a few

1 at Balaclava (Canadian serving with the 11th Hussars)
4 in South Africa (1 LdSH, 3 RCDs)
2 in WW1 both LdSH

In addition 1 Chaplain and 2 Medics/Doctors were awarded the VC while serving with Infantry Bns.

 

[Veterans son]

Hello Everyone:

I thought that I would mention this thread again to get the input/feedback of the forum members.

 

[my72jeep]

How about Gen Curie who fought the Brits to keep command of the CEF in Canadian hands in 1914(that was a big fight).
Or Pilot officer Brown the guy who shot down the Red Barron.or the guy who wrote In Flanders Fields. Or every Member of the CF. who died on some god forsaken peacekeeping mission doing what he was told.

 

[Sheerin]

the guy who wrote In Flanders Field was Lt. Col. John McCrae, MD


Also, with all due respect to Brown, he wasn't the one who brought down the Baron, it was some anonymous Australian machinegunner

 

[mo-litia]

If you wondering who Canada's "greatest military hero" is think about the thousands of troops who never came home.   Those who made the ultimate sacrifice can never be honoured enough.  

 

[Shec]

Armoured/Cavalary Regiments have  quite a few
1 at Balaclava (Canadian serving with the 11th Hussars)
4 in South Africa (1 LdSH, 3 RCDs)
2 in WW1 both LdSH

Lest we forget:    Lt. Harcus Strachan of the Fort Garry Horse was awarded the VC when:

On 20 November 1917 at Masnieres, France, Lieutenant Strachan took command of a mounted squadron of Garrys when the squadron leader, approaching the German front line at a gallop, was killed. Lieutenant Strachan led the squadron through the enemy line of machine-gun posts and then, with the surviving men, led the charge on the German battery, killing seven of the gunners with his sword. When all the gunners were killed and the battery silenced, he rallied his men and fought his way back at night through the enemy's lines, bringing all unwounded men safely in, together with 15 prisoners

This action is remembered every year on Cambrai Day, the premiere FGH regimental celebration.

 

[onecat]

"Also, with all due respect to Brown, he wasn't the one who brought down the Baron, it was some anonymous Australian machinegunner"

I think is there a lot of debate on that event.  Both sides claim to have to downed the Baron, and as a proud Canadian I'm siding with ourside until someone give be positive proof it was Australians.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

How about Gen Curie who fought the Brits to keep command of the CEF in Canadian hands in 1914(that was a big fight).
Or Pilot officer Brown the guy who shot down the Red Barron.or the guy who wrote In Flanders Fields. Or every Member of the CF. who died on some god forsaken peacekeeping mission doing what he was told.

Brown was not a Pilot Officer, he was a Lieutenant.

He also never shot down the Red Baron.  Richtofen was felled by a bulled fired from the ground by a Lewis Gun crew guarding an Australian artillery battery.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

"Also, with all due respect to Brown, he wasn't the one who brought down the Baron, it was some anonymous Australian machinegunner"

I think is there a lot of debate on that event.  Both sides claim to have to downed the Baron, and as a proud Canadian I'm siding with ourside until someone give be positive proof it was Australians.

It's been given.  Read THE DAY THE RED BARON DIED by Dale Titler.  Even Brown admitted, IIRC, that his claim wasn't submitted in good faith.  Neither he nor the Baron should have been flying that day, really.  Both were worn out and sick.  There was a piece on CNN a couple months ago talking about how Richtofen suffered from brain injury (I work on a neuro ward and the symptoms he was described as having are in evidence in many of our patients - specifically a reversion to childish behaviour, and a breaking from normal routines and concentrating too hard on normal tasks.  Richtofen broke all his own rules of air combat - flying too low, flying behind enemy lines, and getting fixated on his target; he paid with his life.)  Brown had nothing to do with it - not to take away from his courage, and he didn't lie, either, but I believe he was somewhat pressured to accept the credit by his superiors.

See this URL for a summary of the evidence on both sides of the story (RFC and Australian Artillery):

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/12/25/13258/202

Incidentally, even if Brown did "get the Baron" (which he didn't), I don't see how that makes him our greatest military hero.  Richtofen got careless and put himself into a stupid situation.  Brown got a couple lucky shots in at him; its not like the two of them flew at each other in single combat.  It was war; Richtofen was doing what he did best - picking on strays and cripples, preferably (to him) by shooting them from behind while they were powerless to shoot back.  Brown was also approaching Richtofen unseen.  It is possible Richtofen didn't even know he was under fire from the ground when the fatal bullet hit. 

I can't imagine anything less heroic, but the fact that both those pilots were in the air despite not having any business there certainly is courageous on its own.  But there were thousands of Canadians in the trenches below who were just as courageous, and for more than the couple of hours a day that the pilots found themselves in danger.

I guess skill is a component of heroism; Brown didn't display any above average skill that day IMO.  He made a pass at a target fixated pilot who couldn't see him.  Which is exactly what he was trained to do.

Manfred von Richtofen was 26 years old when he died.

 

[Alex252]

Jeez Mr. Dorosh what are you a history teacher! Anyways ive heard either opinions on the subject. Discovery channel had a special favouring the Australians, while my History book from last year said it was Canada

 

[Bograt]

Brown had nothing to do with it - not to take away from his courage, and he didn't lie, either, but I believe he was somewhat pressured to accept the credit by his superiors.

... Brown got a couple lucky shots in at him; its not like the two of them flew at each other in single combat.   It was war; Richtofen was doing what he did best - picking on strays and cripples, preferably (to him) by shooting them from behind while they were powerless to shoot back.   Brown was also approaching Richtofen unseen.   It is possible Richtofen didn't even know he was under fire from the ground when the fatal bullet hit.    

I can't imagine anything less heroic, but the fact that both those pilots were in the air despite not having any business there certainly is courageous on its own.  

...Brown didn't display any above average skill that day IMO.   He made a pass at a target fixated pilot who couldn't see him.   Which is exactly what he was trained to do.

How did you become a moderator?

Who the hell are you to comment on Brown's flying skill? Who the hell are you to suggest he was pressured to take the credit? Who the hell are you to suggest that WWI dogfighting was anything less than Herculean? To suggest that if Brown killed von Richtofen it was the result of a luck shot, and it was done less than "heroically" from behind while the opponent was preoccupied is complete bull feces.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

How did you become a moderator?

Who the hell are you to comment on Brown's flying skill? Who the hell are you to suggest he was pressured to take the credit? Who the hell are you to suggest that WWI dogfighting was anything less than Herculean? To suggest that if Brown killed von Richtofen it was the result of a luck shot, and it was done less than "heroically" from behind while the opponent was preoccupied is complete bull feces.

I'm not a 12 year old hero worshipper, if that's what you're asking, nor do I apologize for not being such.   I've got a degree in history, but I don't think you need one to realize that the whole "knights of the sky" stuff was a bunch of hogwash.

Do you even know who Hercules was?

Of course aerial fighting was difficult - as pointed out, Brown and Richtofen were under enormous stresses, physical and mental.   I also said they were brave men.

The fact remains, as far as "dogfighting" went, Brown wasn't doing that.   He was trying to do what all pilots were trained to do - kill an enemy pilot when he was at his most helpless - pointing the other way and preferably unaware you were even there.    Why do you think they attacked from behind, preferably from out of the sun?   Richtofen and Brown had no illusions about what they were doing, where do you get off pretending they did?

Alex, tell me what sources your "history" book used.   Have you read Titler's work?   I suggest you start there for the true story.   Canadians who continue to try and steal the "credit" from the Australians do our country a great disservice in my opinion.

I don't see anything romantic about putting a bullet into a 26 year old boy's head; I think if Brown were alive today he might very possibly agree with me.   They all had a job to do, and did it to the best of their ability.   That included making a claim for propaganda and morale purposes.

The Red Baron scared the shit out of people; the Allies were often at a disadvantage during the war in terms of technology, and earlier on in terms of skill and numbers.   The Germans were aggressive, well equipped, and boastful, painting planes bright colours and using snappy mottos (DU DOCH NICHT! is a good example; Ernst Udet painted it across his tailplane, it meant "Not you, however", meaning someone may "get" me someday, but it won't be you!)   Of course Brown's superiors would press him to make the claim; even in April 1918 - about the time of the German ground offensives which also scared the shit out of the Allies - morale was in serious need of bolstering.

You can be "my country right or wrong" all you want, it doesn't change the simple facts of the case; Brown didn't get the Baron, the Australians did, and Brown's actions were no more, and no less, courageous than what the troops in the trenches below him were doing day in and day out

A lucky shot on a wounded boy looking the other way certainly doesn't make him the "greatest hero" of the war.  Read the account of the action and tell me how much "dogfighting" went on.  The Baron was fixated on May, too low and too far west.  How many passes did Brown make?  It's all in his own combat report and Titler's book.

If you really want a "hero", how about the Tenth Battalion Lance Corporal who had 2 bars to his Military Medal?   There were plenty of others throughout the CEF who won DCMs as sergeants, then MCs and even DSOs as junior and senior officers.   Being engaged for ten minutes with an enemy pilot who was a celebrity is noteworthy, but doesn't make you the bravest man in history.

 

[Bograt]

1. Do you even know who Hercules was?

2. Where do you get off pretending they did?

3. Alex, tell me what sources your "history" book used.   Have you read Titler's work?   I suggest you start there for the true story.   Canadians who continue to try and steal the "credit" from the Australians do our country a great disservice in my opinion.

4. I don't see anything romantic about putting a bullet into a 26 year old boy's head; I think if Brown were alive today he might very possibly agree with me.   They all had a job to do, and did it to the best of their ability.   That included making a claim for propaganda and morale purposes.

5. You can be "my country right or wrong" all you want, it doesn't change the simple facts of the case; Brown didn't get the Baron, the Australians did, and Brown's actions were no more, and no less, courageous than what the troops in the trenches below him were doing day in and day out

My response.

1. Yes, I know who Hurcules was. I also know who is an ass.

2. WTF? Don't put words into my mouth. My comments are entirely based on your "open editorial" of Brown's flying performance. You don't have the stature to minimize his abilities.

3. I am aware of the various opinions and theories regarding the incident. Again, my comments are not based on either of these ideas, but rather your footnotes.

4. Great, you think a dead man might agree with you. Excellent rebuttal.

5. My comments are not reflective of the events, but rather your commentary.

I am not a army cadet or high school student you can impress with your History Degree, nor do I apologize for not being such. You lack the stature to comment on Brown's ability.

 

[Shec]

Oh knock it off you guys.    In the final analysis I doubt that Wop May, strategically speaking one of Canada's greatest aviation heroes,   gave a darn whether it was a fellow Canadian pilot or an Australian machine gunner who got the Red Baron off his tail and thereby probably saved his life.    

In the context of this thread just what is a "hero" anyway?  If indeed H E R O = "He rose to the occasion" every name mentioned on this thread, as well as several hundreds of thousands of others, are all heroes.

And once we agree to define "hero" how do we quantify who is the "greatest" hero.

Is that you John Wayne?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

bograt, you've called me an ass twice now for no reason and questioned my ability to be a moderator.   People get banned for stuff like that so I suggest you dial it down.

Furthermore, if you actually read my comments, you'll see that I don't in any way question Brown's flying ability, so I have no idea what you are on about.

I was commenting on how difficult it was to do what he did that day - make a single pass at Brown.   That isn't a feat of heroism, sorry.

Explain to the class what was "heroic" about Brown's actions.   It wasn't a dogfight, and the Baron, according to contemporary sources (actually, he was known in his own language as der rote Kampfflieger, but that is another story), didn't even know he was there.

I am aware of the various opinions and theories regarding the incident. Again, my comments are not based on either of these ideas, but rather your footnotes.

From THE EAGLE HAS LANDED - "I am aware of the works of Jung, not familiar with, Herr Oberst.  Knowing something exists doesn't mean you've read or understood any of it.  Your comments simply cement the notion that you didn't, and haven't.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[Bograt]

I'll PM you.

 

[Bograt]

I'll respond publically to your previous post. I'll keep it civil.

I wonder would you be so quick to make a statement like "Brown wasn't a hero" to his remaining family? To suggest you would just underlines my assessment of you.

Brown was a WWI veteran. Period. He is a hero.

Your ability to rhyme off quotes at whim is impressive- it reminds me of Jack Van Impe and his ministry.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I'll respond publically to your previous post. I'll keep it civil.

I wonder would you be so quick to make a statement like "Brown wasn't a hero" to his remaining family? To suggest you would just underlines my assessment of you.

Brown was a WWI veteran. Period. He is a hero.

Your ability to rhyme off quotes at whim is impressive- it reminds me of Jack Van Impe and his ministry.

You really do need to read the entire thread.    The suggestion was made that ROY BROWN WAS THE GREATEST CANADIAN HERO OF THE WAR BECAUSE HE SHOT DOWN THE RED BARON.

I am not saying Brown wasn't brave, skilled, or that he and his family didn't suffer during the war.

I am saying that Brown didn't shoot down the Red Baron, firstly, and secondly, even if he did, it was not the most heroic feat of the war, nor would it be reason enough to label him the leading hero of that war.

Are you getting it yet?

I feel no need to read your PM, so if there is anything germaine to the discussion, I suggest you post it here.

I ask you, again, what was so "heroic" about what he did that day that would put him head and shoulders above all the other Canadians who fought in that war.

You now suggest that "they were all heroes", a viewpoint I happen to agree with.  That being said, I see no utility in anointing one person "the greatest" of all of them for a number of reasons.  A few minutes of "aerial combat" with a brain injured pilot who didn't know he was there is just one of those reasons, but there are more important ones - such as the difficulty in comparing the 'bravery" of a private soldier who spends 22 months in and out of the trenches but never kills anybody, and the hotshot pilot who scores 10 or 20 enemy planes in 11 months.  How do you begin to compare their bravery?  Seems silly to me to even try to put a value on courage like that.