Winter Election?

[kcdist]

Calling all Ontarians.

What is up with Ontario voters? I am so very confused by the lack of a public uproar over the Gomery findings. Although by the narrow scope of the inquiry, Martin was 'vindicated', there is no question of the culpability of the Liberal Party in using stolen funds to help win the past two elections.

Therefore, why are Ontario voters not clamoring for a chance to go to the polls? Why the disinterest? Why the apathy? There are very few of us, in our personal lives, who would not immediately take action if someone close to us, in a position of trust, was found stealing from us. How is this any different?

What would have to be done to convince the average Ontarian to want to go to the polls in December? Are we that weak as a society, do we take Democracy that much for granted, that a one hour trek to the polls is too great of a burden?

Even if I were a card carrying Liberal, who, for some illogical reason decided that the actions of my party and my leadership did not warrant political banishment, I would still welcome an election to show my continued support and to put this matter to rest forever. 

Unfortunately, the answer lies only in Ontario.

Thoughts?

 

[xFusilier]

What would have to be done to get Ontarians to want to go to the polls hmmm:

1.  Replace Stephen Harper with Peter MacKay
2.  Lobotomize all of the mouth breathers in the Conservative Party who think the party is the political wing of the Heritage Front and think its a great idea to comment on: Jesus, Gay Marriage, Immigration, Constitutional Issues, etc, to national media during an election campaign
3.  Fire all of the Conservative policy advisor's and strategists that are/were responsible for the Grewal Affair/The fuss over Dingwalls expense account (over which I might add the cons made themselves look like clowns, they should all be thanking John Gomery for putting that out of the public eye) and the whole Jet Skiing for Jesus photo op.
4.  Have the conservatives start opining policies that appeal to Ontarians vice Albertans after all if anything been proven time and time again, you can win an election if the majority of Ontarians vote for you, and nobody in Alberta votes for you (not the other way around STEPHEN!)

Other than that I really don't know.  But I do know that if the Conservative aren't able to convince the voters of Southern Ontario that they are capable of running the country, than I've got a better chance of giving birth than they do of ever winning a general election.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Because there is nobody worth voting for. Thats why.

 

[In the light of things]

All I can say is, at least he didn't give the money to any conservatives.  Then we'd have a real problem, considering what they want in a budget.  The conservatives are just morons who want Canada to be exactly like the US, and to delete the moral fabric that this country was founded on, peace, freedom, and law.  They want something but they have no plan to get there (we know how good Republican Intel is  ), and what they want is not in the interest of the people (I sincerely hope it isn't, at least).  I'd rather Canada stay Canadian, or the world turn Canadian  ;D (...just an idea...).  Anyway, whiskey's right, there hasn't yet been a politician I would want to vote for, just people I have to vote against to keep out:
Conservatives = Republicans with a longer name

Vote NDP  .

 

[Zartan]

You're a general?? :

 

[kcdist]

What would have to be done to get Ontarians to want to go to the polls hmmm:


2.   Lobotomize all of the mouth breathers in the Conservative Party who think the party is the political wing of the Heritage Front and think its a great idea to comment on: Jesus, Gay Marriage, Immigration, Constitutional Issues, etc, to national media during an election campaign

Funny. Former Prime Minister Kim Campbell stated in the 1993 election that a General Election was no time to discuss serious issues, and she was pilloried by all sides. Not that I generally disagree with the statement, but, by and large, issues such as immigration and how the Constitution is applied should be discussed during an election. How better to know the views of the party that you're voting for?

Anyhow, how very sad. Is the answer to my question nothing but sweeping exaggerations and generalizations? Beliefs held by the masses that are not based on intelligent understanding of the issues? Sigh. One always hopes that the Canadian electorate is more intelligent than most, but I fear that is not the case.

In my case, I could competently debate issues such as gun control, national child care, medicare and the like from both sides. However, when presented with all the facts and rationalizations, coupled with my own personal experiences, I choose the Conservative side of the fence more often than not.  I wish all voters could state the same level of knowledge of issues, but alas, that is clearly not the case.

However, to repeat the question: Why is Ontario not clamoring for an election ASAP? Either to put the Gomery beast to rest for good, (ie. a vindication of Martin), or to replace the lyin', thievin' scoundrels immediately, before they do further damage. In my neck of the woods, that is all that is discussed in the papers and on talk radio, with the results seeming to be 10 to 1 in favour (even by some Liberals). 

 

[In the light of things]

Yeah Zartan, I'm an amazing General.  You should see me at StarCraft.

 

[x-zipperhead]

Look at the latest polls.  The liberals and conservatives are neck and neck both hovering around the 30% range.  You would think that with this kind of bad press, the conservatives would have a much larger lead, but they don't.  So what's the rush to an election? ( besides Harper trying to capitalize on Canadians anger before it fizzles out )  So we can end up with another minority government - be it liberal or conservative.  That's a lot of $ to have an election for really little change in the make up of parliament.  If the conservatives can't do better than that in this political climate, it makes you wonder if they ever can.

As bad as the liberals look right now, it is a pretty big leap ideologically to Stephen Harper and the conservative platform. 

I think, personally, that the liberals are as guilty as sin but there is no real alternative.  I think you will see the electorate stick with the devil they know.  Voters have a very short memory and I think this will blow over, just like all the other scandals - liberal and conservative alike.

 

[aesop081]

Look at the latest polls.   The liberals and conservatives are neck and neck both hovering around the 30% range.   You would think that with this kind of bad press, the conservatives would have a much larger lead, but they don't.   So what's the rush to an election? ( besides Harper trying to capitalize on Canadians anger before it fizzles out )   So we can end up with another minority government - be it liberal or conservative.   That's a lot of $ to have an election for really little change in the make up of parliament.   If the conservatives can't do better than that in this political climate, it makes you wonder if they ever can.

As bad as the liberals look right now, it is a pretty big leap ideologically to Stephen Harper and the conservative platform.  

I think, personally, that the liberals are as guilty as sin but there is no real alternative.   I think you will see the electorate stick with the devil they know.   Voters have a very short memory and I think this will blow over, just like all the other scandals - liberal and conservative alike.

I think that's a pretty fair assesement of whats going on.  neither the conservatives or the bloc are prepared to pull the trigger on the libs at this point for fears that the will be screwed by the NDP anyways.  Jack Layton, IMHO, is playing games with the rest of the oposition in order to get concessions from the liberals Re: health care.  trouble is, at least in my mind, is that he has taken a tough stance and so far the libs are not bitting.  If the libs continue to refuse NDP demands, Jack layton risks looking like a fool if he doesnt act when his oposition day comes.

But i fully agree with x-zipperhead that the collective canadian memory fades way too quickly and we will simply wake up with a change of minority if it comes to an early election.  We are in the midle of a scandal that has hangered many and the best the conservatives can do is 30% ?

electing the liberals again will not be a choice, it will be a lack of option.

 

[kcdist]

As bad as the liberals look right now, it is a pretty big leap ideologically to Stephen Harper and the conservative platform.  

Help me out then. I know the Conservative platform quite well (I've read the web site), and I can't find a single issue that would qualify as a big leap ideologically. I consider myself a strong fiscal conservative, a strong environmentalist and a social moderate. The gay marriage thing could have gone either way. I understood both sides, and noted with interest members from all parties voted both for and against. I could have cared less either way.

So, gay marriage aside, what are the issues that Ontarians find major fault with? Within the military, there are specific policies that should resonate well with serving member. For example Employment Insurance overpayment. With over a $40 billion surplus in the EI account, the Liberals have no plans for a major reduction. The Conservatives do, as they consider it a payroll tax that stifles investment. When I left the military, despite having paid into it for 10 years, I was paid not one penny. It is bad enough to have to pay into EI, it's worse having to overpay into it.

Another issue is National Childcare. I know that the percentage of stay- at- home moms in the military is much higher than the general population. (Kind of hard to work outside the home when your husband is away much of the time). The Billion dollar Childcare plan offers no help to families that have one parent that stays home. The Conservative plan is to give families with small children a tax credit, the saving for which can be applied to anything the family wants - even Childcare.

Two ideas. Hardly a big leap. There are many others that make just as much sense.

All that said, Stephen Harper is fat, he dresses for the Calgary Stampede like a member of the Village People, his hair looks like a hockey helmut and he doesn't smile very often. On the other hand, he is bilingual, very intelligent and quite articulate. Does this make him scary? 

Anyhow, slightly of topic, but I just can't understand the phobia in Ontario in regards to the Conservatives.

 

[x-zipperhead]

  Jack Layton, IMHO, is playing games with the rest of the oposition in order to get concessions from the liberals Re: health care.   trouble is, at least in my mind, is that he has taken a tough stance and so far the libs are not bitting.   If the libs continue to refuse NDP demands, Jack layton risks looking like a fool if he doesnt act when his oposition day comes.

Yeah, old smiling Jack is just loving his role in the way this has all played out.  After years of no NDP influence in parliament he finds himself in the rare position sharing the balance of power.  He will prop up this government to hold on to this balance.  That's why IMO he is a little less eager than Harper to bring the house down with a confidence motion.  I also think the libs a very aware of Jacks position and that's why they are not bending over backwards for him.  It'll be interesting to see what they do.  Probably status quo.

 

[aesop081]

  Probably status quo.

You know it.   The liberals are going to go on claiming that they are trying to govern through all this and that its the oposition preventing the house from bringing such "sweeping" legislation as national child care.   Gomery will fade from the collective memory of canadian voters who, in a case i saw on TV, think that twining the trans-canada hwy should be the government's top priority.   As has been said before , the oposition parties have not been able to capitalize on "adscam" for a variety of reasons ( The inability of the consevatives to get a foothold in ontario being a big one), so realy, not much is going to change.   realy, come to think of it, if   the " billion dollar boondogle" wasnt enough to shock canadian voters into action, what made us think that "adscam" would ?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Well, rain, snow, freezing temps, Xmas, I don't care. I say the sooner the better, bring it on.

 

[x-zipperhead]

Help me out then. I know the Conservative platform quite well (I've read the web site), and I can't find a single issue that would qualify as a big leap ideologically. I consider myself a strong fiscal conservative, a strong environmentalist and a social moderate. The gay marriage thing could have gone either way. I understood both sides, and noted with interest members from all parties voted both for and against. I could have cared less either way.

So, gay marriage aside, what are the issues that Ontarians find major fault with? Within the military, there are specific policies that should resonate well with serving member. For example Employment Insurance overpayment. With over a $40 billion surplus in the EI account, the Liberals have no plans for a major reduction. The Conservatives do, as they consider it a payroll tax that stifles investment. When I left the military, despite having paid into it for 10 years, I was paid not one penny. It is bad enough to have to pay into EI, it's worse having to overpay into it.

Another issue is National Childcare. I know that the percentage of stay- at- home moms in the military is much higher than the general population. (Kind of hard to work outside the home when your husband is away much of the time). The Billion dollar Childcare plan offers no help to families that have one parent that stays home. The Conservative plan is to give families with small children a tax credit, the saving for which can be applied to anything the family wants - even Childcare.

Two ideas. Hardly a big leap. There are many others that make just as much sense.

All that said, Stephen Harper is fat, he dresses for the Calgary Stampede like a member of the Village People, his hair looks like a hockey helmut and he doesn't smile very often. On the other hand, he is bilingual, very intelligent and quite articulate. Does this make him scary?   

Anyhow, slightly of topic, but I just can't understand the phobia in Ontario in regards to the Conservatives.

I don't think you can call yourself a social moderate and just ignore the gay marriage fiasco.  This conservative created social crisis didn't help them win the hearts of Ontario.

National childcare - I can relate given that I am military and my wife stays home.  A tax credit? great so I'll save a few hundred bucks for the year will that change my life ? no. What good is a tax credit to a single mother making $15,000/year.  Tax credits do nothing for the poor. Nothing.

As for it not being a big leap in ideology, well it's enough of a leap that Ontario has no appetite for Stephen Harper or his parties social policies.  As x- Fusilier pointed out very well, if Ontario makes or breaks you in a federal election and you cater your platform to Alberta, it's kinda a no brainer.  As a matter of fact I think x-fusiliers post kind of sums their problems up quite well, in an amusing kind of way

 

[RangerRay]

In any other democratic country, the Liberals would have been turfed by the voters for fraud and corruption 5 years ago, and broken up into 3 or 4 different factions.

The Tories want to clean up government, restore funding to the CF and create a Canadian foreign policy that isn't dictated by the UN or the US.  Yeah, that's pretty scary.  :

 

[kcdist]

National childcare - I can relate given that I am military and my wife stays home.   A tax credit? great so I'll save a few hundred bucks for the year will that change my life ? no. What good is a tax credit to a single mother making $15,000/year.   Tax credits do nothing for the poor. Nothing.

For the record, low income earners are well taken care of under the Conservative plan. The ideological selling point with the Conservative plan is that, as a family with a stay at home parent, my tax dollars are not going to subsidize a two income, $120,000 a year family with their childcare choices, as is currently the situation. Conservatism (Canadian Style) means the poor and underprivileged are looked after with a hand up, not a hand out.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The Tories want to clean up government, restore funding to the CF and create a Canadian foreign policy that isn't dictated by the UN or the US.   Yeah, that's pretty scary.   :

They won't do any of those things. They'll cut taxes and cut services but they sure as shot won't do anything else- as a party that is a collection of bizarre regional competing interests they aren't capabale of anything else.  Thats why I will never vote for them again.

I'm voting for the cute little blonde lawyer running for the Green Party in London West again.

 

[aesop081]

They won't do any of those things. They'll cut taxes and cut services but they sure as shot won't do anything else because as a party that is a collection of competing interests thats all they are capable of. Thats why I will never vote for them again.

I'm voting for the cute little blonde lawyer running for the Green Party in London West again.

I dare say she is highly qualified for the job !!!

 

[RangerRay]

They won't do any of those things. They'll cut taxes and cut services but they sure as shot won't do anything else- as a party that is a collection of bizarre regional competing interests they aren't capabale of anything else.   Thats why I will never vote for them again.

I'm voting for the cute little blonde lawyer running for the Green Party in London West again.

You might want to check out their proposed Federal Accountability Act...

http://www.conservative.ca/media/20051104-Policy-Accountability2.pdf

 

[Cloud Cover]

Means nothing. By the time the civil service is done with consulting with the conservatives, the whole thing will be hollowed out and worthless.