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Women versus Transwomen

Altair

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Not sure where to put this, so RC it is.

Anyone remember that Toronto spa for women only that didn't allow Pre Op trans women in?

Not about them, but that same issue is popping up again.

Women versus Trans women, it's going to be a interesting societal battle as women with penises enter spaces where women don't want penises.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/kristi-hanna-human-rights-complaint-transgender-woman-toronto-shelter

Hanna, 37, is a former paramedic who has lately worked in the service industry, and has been struggling with the lingering effects of sexual abuse and resulting problems with addiction to alcohol and cocaine. She described herself as an “active ally in the LGBTQ community,” but said this conflict has left her feeling as if vulnerable women are unable to voice their own gender-based rights for fear of violating someone else’s.

“It’s affecting everyone in the house. This can completely ruin your recovery, let alone your safety, let alone your life,” Hanna said in an interview.

She spent two nights sharing the room — constantly looking over to make sure her roommate was still in bed, she said — before taking an indefinite leave from the shelter. Hanna had lived for seven months at the central Toronto facility, located in an old Victorian house, but since last week has been staying with friends on couches, as a “transient,” she said. “Those two nights were hell for me.”

In her formal complaint to the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario, Hanna alleges the shelter “admitted a male bodied transgender into the safety of my home, bedroom and safe spaces.” She claims this has caused her stress, anxiety, rape flashbacks, symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder and sleep deprivation.

“We were all choked by our own anxiety, our crippling PTSD symptoms. You could cut the tension in the house,” she said. She described other women having rape flashbacks, threatening suicide, and one requiring hospitalization.

And I'm not going to lie, one societal issues where men(in the classic sense) aren't to blame is kind of interesting to watch from the sidelines.
 

BeyondTheNow

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Altair said:
Not sure where to put this, so RC it is.

Anyone remember that Toronto spa for women only that didn't allow Pre Op trans women in?

Not about them, but that same issue is popping up again.

Women versus Trans women, it's going to be a interesting societal battle as women with penises enter spaces where women don't want penises.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/kristi-hanna-human-rights-complaint-transgender-woman-toronto-shelter

And I'm not going to lie, one societal issues where men(in the classic sense) aren't to blame is kind of interesting to watch from the sidelines.

I read an article about this last night. I may not be popular for saying this, but in the specific situation that the article cites, (meaning an environment where some women have suffered varying degrees of sexual assault by men, and are suffering from long-term physical as well as psychological effects) the last thing they want to encounter is male anatomy to any degree. It would be different if there were private living spaces, but there weren’t. I don’t blame the complainant for being uncomfortable and it is an interesting conundrum of whose “rights” trump another’s.

I don’t agree with how the complaint was handled either. If anything, the minimum response should have been that the situation warranted closer consideration, not that she was the one discriminating.
 

Altair

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BeyondTheNow said:
I read an article about this last night. I may not be popular for saying this, but in the specific situation that the article cites, (meaning an environment where some women have suffered varying degrees of sexual assault by men, and are suffering from long-term physical as well as psychological effects) the last thing they want to encounter is male anatomy to any degree. It would be different if there were private living spaces, but there weren’t. I don’t blame the complainant for being uncomfortable and it is an interesting conundrum of whose “rights” trump another’s.

I don’t agree with how the complaint was handled either. If anything, the minimum response should have been that the situation warranted closer consideration, not that she was the one discriminating.
This is just my feelings on the issue, my opinion, but it's my sense that women have made great strides forward in the past few decades, and are going to be loathe to sacrifice any gains made in favor of trans women.

The logical(to me) solution would be to make a new class of gender with its own services and safe spaces being made for it. Womens washrooms, Mens washrooms, Trans washrooms.  Trans changing spaces, Mens changing spaces Womens changing spaces. Mens shelters, Womens shelters and Trans shelters. But this would mean not fully recognizing trans people as the gender they identify with, which could count as discrimination. It would however, acknowledge that there are physical differences between men, women and trans people. I feel women are sadly being left to deal with this on their own, without any guidelines of how this is suppose to work for them.
 

TCM621

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BeyondTheNow said:
I read an article about this last night. I may not be popular for saying this, but in the specific situation that the article cites, (meaning an environment where some women have suffered varying degrees of sexual assault by men, and are suffering from long-term physical as well as psychological effects) the last thing they want to encounter is male anatomy to any degree. It would be different if there were private living spaces, but there weren’t. I don’t blame the complainant for being uncomfortable and it is an interesting conundrum of whose “rights” trump another’s.

I don’t agree with how the complaint was handled either. If anything, the minimum response should have been that the situation warranted closer consideration, not that she was the one discriminating.

This is just one of those shitty situations. On the one hand we have a sexual abuse survivor and on the other we have a person (judging by the article) in the very beginnings of transition both of whom are trying to deal with substance abuse. The part of the article which bugs me is that she is told that by calling this person him or male, she is committing a human rights violation by the Ontario Human Rights legal support center. 
 

BeyondTheNow

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Altair said:
This is just my feelings on the issue, my opinion, but it's my sense that women have made great strides forward in the past few decades, and are going to be loathe to sacrifice any gains made in favor of trans women.

The logical(to me) solution would be to make a new class of gender with its own services and safe spaces being made for it. Womens washrooms, Mens washrooms, Trans washrooms.  Trans changing spaces, Mens changing spaces Womens changing spaces. Mens shelters, Womens shelters and Trans shelters. But this would mean not fully recognizing trans people as the gender they identify with, which could count as discrimination. It would however, acknowledge that there are physical differences between men, women and trans people. I feel women are sadly being left to deal with this on their own, without any guidelines of how this is suppose to work for them.

That’s going down a huge rabbit hole though. Most issues with that have been discussed as part of other threads. But to pick out one point, there isn’t the resources nor the demand to start operating trans-only facilities. We have enough issues simply keeping the standard male and female shelters and various programs operating, staffed and funded adequately as it is.
 

Altair

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BeyondTheNow said:
That’s going down a huge rabbit hole though. Most issues with that have been discussed as part of other threads. But to pick out one point, there’s isn’t the resources nor the demand to start operating trans-only facilities. We have enough issues simply keeping the standard male and female shelters and various programs operating, staffed and funded adequately as it is.
I'm aware. it's one of those perfect world "solutions".

That said, in cases like these, it doesn't appear that the status quo is working.
 

BeyondTheNow

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Altair said:
I'm aware. it's one of those perfect world "solutions".

That said, in cases like these, it doesn't appear that the status quo is working.

Yup. We are increasingly becoming a country which tries to make everyone happy and in doing so, more and more people are becoming unhappy. It’s an impossible task. And there’s no suitable place to draw the line of where it becomes abundantly unproductive to keep trying to be universally inclusive.
 

Altair

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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/transgender-people-no-right-single-sex-spaces-government-penny-mordaunt-toilets-changing-rooms-a8414771.html

Just for reference this is how the UK does it.

Under current laws, trans people have a default right to use whichever single-sex area they choose, but can be turned away if doing so can be justified as proportionate. Ministers said they would not change the law to make single-sex spaces completely illegal.

I have a feeling like this is something that's going to need to be decided by the supreme court.
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=Tcm621] . The part of the article which bugs me is that she is told that by calling this person him or male, she is committing a human rights violation by the Ontario Human Rights legal support center.
[/quote]

Very much agree.  It's becoming quite absurd.
 

CBH99

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Universal inclusion is a BS idea, created by a society who's idea of self-enlightening is completely out of control.

I'm sorry, but a fat hairy dude with a penis who "identifies" as a female should NOT have equal recognition to actual females, especially in a home for women who are recovering from domestic abuse, sexual abuse, etc etc.  This whole thing is beyond stupid, and I think a few people need a good slap upside the head.

Calling and saying you have concerns that a hairy male who speaks disrespectfully of females is being allowed to stay in the same bedroom as a female trying to escape a bad situation...and being told that SHE is the one who is potentially breaking the law simply by calling & filing a complaint?  Absurd.  Beyond absurd.



It would be a different story if it was a male who was clearly going through the gender transition process, and was trying to escape violence or abuse.  That's a discussion with merits on both sides.  Who is being polite and respectful, isn't speaking piggishly about other females in the house being hot, etc...  I'm not against including someone if they are clearly in the process of transitioning, but just haven't completed the full transition yet.  (Still requiring a surgery or 2, but otherwise well on their way.)

Big difference between a cross-dresser who wants to be female, and an actual in-the-process of transitioning person. 
 

Fishbone Jones

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I wonder what the reaction would be if it were a trans female, without gender reassignment surgery, trying to get into an all male emporium?

Males are also victims of sexual and physical abuse from females, so let's get away from that image of a 250 lb drunk in a wife beater shirt and the helpless, 98 lb woman. That excuse doesn't hold water.

This situation is not new or exclusive. Women spent 20 years trying to force their way into every possible bastion of male reclusivness. Now, like their male counterparts, the same tactics are being used on them and they are getting upset. They, again like the males, will spend the next 20 years trying to keep their towers purely XX chromosones.
 

Altair

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recceguy said:
I wonder what the reaction would be if it were a trans female, without gender reassignment surgery, trying to get into an all male emporium?

Males are also victims of sexual and physical abuse from females, so let's get away from that image of a 250 lb drunk in a wife beater shirt and the helpless, 98 lb woman. That excuse doesn't hold water.

This situation is not new or exclusive. Women spent 20 years trying to force their way into every possible bastion of male reclusivness. Now, like their male counterparts, the same tactics are being used on them and they are getting upset. They, again like the males, will spend the next 20 years trying to keep their towers purely XX chromosones.
True,  although in the case of the toronto all woman spa,  woman seem to be digging in far more than men did.

Women have spent far more time fighting the gender war (men have simply been trying to limit their losses) and are not going to give up ground so easily.
 

TeresaJean

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The logical(to me) solution would be to make a new class of gender with its own services and safe spaces being made for it. Womens washrooms, Mens washrooms, Trans washrooms.  Trans changing spaces, Mens changing spaces Womens changing spaces. Mens shelters, Womens shelters and Trans shelters. But this would mean not fully recognizing trans people as the gender they identify with, which could count as discrimination. It would however, acknowledge that there are physical differences between men, women and trans people. I feel women are sadly being left to deal with this on their own, without any guidelines of how this is suppose to work for them.

Do you mean like they had washrooms for blacks in the US at one time?
 

TeresaJean

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I read an article about this last night. I may not be popular for saying this, but in the specific situation that the article cites, (meaning an environment where some women have suffered varying degrees of sexual assault by men, and are suffering from long-term physical as well as psychological effects) the last thing they want to encounter is male anatomy to any degree. It would be different if there were private living spaces, but there weren’t. I don’t blame the complainant for being uncomfortable and it is an interesting conundrum of whose “rights” trump another’s.

I don't know if this was in the story you read but the cis woman was offered a single occupant room but she turned it down.
 

BeyondTheNow

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TeresaJean said:
Do you mean like they had washrooms for blacks in the US at one time?

That's hardly the same thing. That was for the sole purpose of marginalizing and segregating, whereas the option the poster was suggesting is to illicit a feeling of personal safety.

This topic hasn't been touched on since August, so I hope you're not bumping it for the sole purpose of creating unnecessary discord.
 
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