WSIB in Emergency Services

[mariomike]

Saw this in, "VAC and other Soldiers' Benefits"

Same pay in a lower-paying classification? Interesting. I've seen it for on-to-job illness or injury accommodation and I think WSIB picks up the difference (not sure on that). But moving somebody from Job A to Job B because they were a screw-up in A, but keep their pay?

It's different in a large police service like Toronto, OPP or RCMP.

Over 180 different career opportunities within the Toronto Police Service.

As a police officer, one might not be forced to spend every hour of your entire career being sent to 9-1-1 calls, if one prefers not to.

It's different for a paramedic. Some of those "screw-ups" were just worn out. Like used vehicles.

When they reach that stage, some sooner, some later,

Employees who are placed in a permanent alternate position, due to an occupational injury/illness (as defined by the Workplace Safety & Insurance Board), will be subject to the normal assessment period and will receive the wage rate of the position to which they are assigned. If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated.

https://local416.ca/wp-content/uploads/securepdfs/2022/06/123059-1_TorontoCivicEmployees_CBA.pdf
Page 136 #5

The highlighted part came in after I retired.

Ontario PTSD Presumptive Legislation came in, also after I retired.

Ontario Newsroom​

news.ontario.ca

without the need to prove a causal link between PTSD and a workplace event.

That means, you don't have to provide a specific "workplace event".

Because in answer to that, they used to say, "You've been sent to thousands of 9-1-1 calls. Get out there and mop them up."

Now, WSIB calls it Cumulative Mental Stress.

Some say, only half-jokingly, if you don't eventually have cumulative 9-1-1 stress, you must be nuts. Sort of a Catch-22.

Because there are no "Comparable" job classifications aka "career oportunities" for City paramedics, they are placed into "Suitable" job classifications.

As of the end of March 2023, there were 41,835 active employees in the Toronto Public Service.

Every possible Job Classification one can imagine.

And, that 41,835 does not even include the City’s Agencies, Boards or Commissions (TTC, Police, Library, Association of Community Centres, etc.), Accountability Offices, or elected officials.

They will - they must - find you something.

There are outdoor jobs, as well as clean, inside jobs with no heavy lifting, and an A/C thermostat on the wall.

Maybe even Work From Home?! ( Wherever "home" may be. )

Most importantly, now,

If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated.

If an honourable exit path such as that had existed when we were on 9-1-1 Operations, I suspect some ( many? ) would have taken it.

 

[mariomike]

Saw this in today's news.

Across Ontario, one in 10 paramedics is currently off work due to PTSD and other stress-related illnesses

Since 2022, there has been an increase employees staying off work for a much longer period, resulting in higher claim costs. Fire and paramedic services continue to see the number and cost of claims increasing.

In 2023, paramedic services experienced an increase in (a) number of employees, new to the industry, unable to return to their pre-disability occupation, which required a permanent accommodation outside of paramedic services.

In July, the Ontario Association of Paramedic Chiefs provided a report to the provincial deputy health minister regarding the impact of OSIs on paramedic services. They concluded stress injuries are costing taxpayers more than $100 million annually.

( Ontario ) Paramedic services reported since 2016 there has been more than a 500 per cent increase in WSIB costs for mental health claims, while all other WSIB costs remain relatively static

Greater Sudbury's first responders feeling the stress, report says

Across Ontario, one in 10 paramedics is currently off work due to PTSD and other stress-related illnesses.

www.thesudburystar.com

 

[Booter]

I would like to see similar for the RCMP where our occupational restricted members are moved to public service jobs elsewhere at the same rate.

 

[foresterab]

While I am very impressed by the changes in the Volunteer fire department world where the PTSD factors are addressed significantly better over the last decade wildland firefigters...most of whom are seasonal staff and/or contractors...still have major issues.

Closest match I can think of is the experiences of RegF units returning post tour and having a formed group of peers to decompress with vs. ResF members who scattered back to home units with much more limited supports.

This is a USFS focused article but I hardly have to think to come up with names unfit for deployment due to PTSD and little to no options for occupational transfer exist.

Burning out: the silent crisis spreading among wildland firefighters

The 20,000 wildfire fighters risking their lives across the US are also jeopardizing their mental health. Who’s there to help them once they emerge, ash-covered and scarred in ways even they can’t see?

www.theguardian.com

 

[brihard]

I would like to see similar for the RCMP where our occupational restricted members are moved to public service jobs elsewhere at the same rate.

Same rate as in same pay?

 

[Booter]

Yes. You medical out of rcmp and into a position at public service but maintain your pay. If you don’t do that they ll never cooperate. And we need them to cooperate

 

[dapaterson]

Yes. You medical out of rcmp and into a position at public service but maintain your pay. If you don’t do that they ll never cooperate. And we need them to cooperate

Except they would not be doing the same job, not incurring the same responsibilities.

 

[kratz]

Yes. You medical out of rcmp and into a position at public service but maintain your pay. If you don’t do that they ll never cooperate. And we need them to cooperate

While it may he easier to encourage RCMP member cooperation with this arrangement, how would PSAC members respond to this? I don't see it merging well.

 

[brihard]

Yes. You medical out of rcmp and into a position at public service but maintain your pay. If you don’t do that they ll never cooperate. And we need them to cooperate

Hm. Tough call. Depending on the member, that can be a lot of KSAs walking out the door because they’re too banged up to wear a duty belt again. This might be a good potential opportunity to retrain individuals to be competitive for roles like intelligence analyst or civilian criminal investigators, or into certain training or non-operational managerial roles where what they know can remain of value to the organization. If someone can’t gun up anymore, but can plan good protective events, team command a major project, or write solid ITOs, do you want to lose them to some random fed department?

You’re absolutely right that employee buy-in is key. Someone who decides to fight a compelled medical retirement can drag it out for a year or two even if all the boxes are properly ticked.

Do the new members even presently exist to backfill these hard police positions even if you can get them emptied?

 

[dapaterson]

RCMP already have preferential hiring when retired for medical reasons; and provided they have at least two years of pensionable service, will receive an immediate annuity based on that service.

Part II, Chapter 7: Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) Members Discharged for Medical Reasons - Canada.ca

www.canada.ca

Disability - Royal Canadian Mounted Police - Active members - Royal Canadian Mounted Police pension - Canada.ca

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Members who are disabled on release

rcmp-grc.pension.gc.ca

 

[dapaterson]

This might be a good potential opportunity to retrain individuals to be competitive for roles like intelligence analyst or civilian criminal investigators, or into certain training or non-operational managerial roles where what they know can remain of value to the organization.

I hear there's an intelligence DG position available...

 

[brihard]

RCMP already have preferential hiring when retired for medical reasons; and provided they have at least two years of pensionable service, will receive an immediate annuity based on that service.

Part II, Chapter 7: Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) Members Discharged for Medical Reasons - Canada.ca

www.canada.ca

Disability - Royal Canadian Mounted Police - Active members - Royal Canadian Mounted Police pension - Canada.ca

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Members who are disabled on release

rcmp-grc.pension.gc.ca

Which is all well and good, but that can still be quite a loss to the organization. A lot of the civilian positions within a police service - at least ones like I described, intelligence analysts or civilian criminal investigators - might have certain hard requirements for training or education that an experienced and skilled investigative cop may not have; say cyber security or accounting credentials, or a university degree in the right field. I don’t know if an RCMP medical discharge into private insurance comes with any option for formal education training like CAF Voc Rehab does. I believe the RCMP is mostly still on the pre-2006 “take your VAC money and your pension so far and frig off” model.

 

[Remius]

Civilian Criminal Investigators | Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Info here and a list of essential quals. As you mentioned, background and education in those specific fields are required.

There are however plenty of other roles a former RM could play in other classifications and bring their experience over that would be better suited for someone with policing experience rather than someone without. Something to look into…

 

[mariomike]

Depends on the employer, and collective agreement, I suppose.

There was great fear at the top of our dept. that if an honourable path existed to escape 9-1-1 Operations, many would take it.

Whole new ball game now. Apparently, many have. Ontario Paramedic services reported since 2016 there has been more than a 500 per cent increase in WSIB costs for mental health claims

As no "Comparable" jobs exist with the City, members are permanently placed in "Suitable" jobs.

As in unskilled, no responsibility, no phyical or mental effort.

What they do get is clean, quiet, inside work with no heavy lifting and a thermostat on the wall.

Nothing to worry about. The pre-injury pay rate is maintained, and is subject to all wage increases negotiated.

Seniority, OMERS, etc. all seamlessly continue ( ie: no Break in Service ).

 

[Booter]

While it may he easier to encourage RCMP member cooperation with this arrangement, how would PSAC members respond to this? I don't see it merging well.

Alright. Well we ll all be prisoners of the what the public service thinks is best for public safety. We re talking about people injured in the service of others- it’s not thousands of members. If those Public Service members don’t like it- they can sign up as Mounties. Get PTSD at three times the rate of the other police officers in Canada and then they can go back to the public service when they can’t work anymore.

Hm. Tough call. Depending on the member, that can be a lot of KSAs walking out the door because they’re too banged up to wear a duty belt again. This might be a good potential opportunity to retrain individuals to be competitive for roles like intelligence analyst or civilian criminal investigators, or into certain training or non-operational managerial roles where what they know can remain of value to the organization. If someone can’t gun up anymore, but can plan good protective events, team command a major project, or write solid ITOs, do you want to lose them to some random fed department?

You’re absolutely right that employee buy-in is key. Someone who decides to fight a compelled medical retirement can drag it out for a year or two even if all the boxes are properly ticked.

Do the new members even presently exist to backfill these hard police positions even if you can get them emptied?

No we don’t presently have the bodies. You’re right. But the present ODS will they come back? Won’t they? Causes years of headache while Ottawa does a shell game of who counts as a vacancy and who doesn’t

If you cannot wear a gun and work a night shift- you should not be a regular member of the Royal Canadian mounted police.

Every single officer in the organization should be able to complete the physical test and work without restriction in organization.

If a member can be in a position without wearing a gun- civilianize it and make it a CM and we ll retain them.

I’m tired of medical profiles that say they can’t work night forever. Can’t work with sudden deaths. Can’t work domestic violence because it’s a trigger.

If you’re on a GRW and there’s a systematic approach to coming back and you needed a break after a serious incident- I am 100% in your corner.

It is my anecdotal experience that doctors forever say there is a chance of people returning to duty rather than make a decision that supports medical discharge. And it’s usually the financial repercussions that members are most concerned with. I don’t want to see anyone financially hurt because we used up their health. But by the same token- we re using up other peoples health because others are working around them.

Last fall I saw a vacancy report that had detachments that were under 50% and 60% strength counted as 70% and 80% staffed. Tahts creating new burnt out and injured people. We need new honest and transparent counting.

You promoted to a corporal job where you work night shift and a month later you show me a medical chit that you can’t work nights anymore? Get fucked with Bells on

It’s a piper dream. You’re all correct. It’ll never work. But my god is the present system broken. It’s all tongue in cheek. It won’t work- you guys are right. I’m just day dreaming.

 

[kratz]

Welcome to the CAF being reduced to non-union public servants.

Alright. Well we ll all be prisoners of the what the public service thinks is best for public safety. We re talking about people injured in the service of others- it’s not thousands of members. If those Public Service members don’t like it- they can sign up as Mounties. Get PTSD at three times the rate of the other police officers in Canada and then they can go back to the public service when they can’t work anymore.

No we don’t presently have the bodies. You’re right. But the present ODS will they come back? Won’t they? Causes years of headache while Ottawa does a shell game of who counts as a vacancy and who doesn’t

If you cannot wear a gun and work a night shift- you should not be a regular member of the Royal Canadian mounted police.

Every single officer in the organization should be able to complete the physical test and work without restriction in organization.

 

[Booter]

You got me. Damn it.

Welcome to the CAF being reduced to non-union public servants.

 

[kratz]

Sadly, I do not want to be right.
I prefer to support your arguments, but I do not see a path based on what is presented.

 

[Remius]

Alright. Well we ll all be prisoners of the what the public service thinks is best for public safety. We re talking about people injured in the service of others- it’s not thousands of members. If those Public Service members don’t like it- they can sign up as Mounties. Get PTSD at three times the rate of the other police officers in Canada and then they can go back to the public service when they can’t work anymore.

It’s somewhat more complicated than that. RCMP, CAF and PS all fall under different acts. The rules for selection merit criteria etc are governed by those acts. The common thing is that priority hiring exists for medically released CAF and RCMP. It’s the same thing the other way around. A PS joining the RCMP won’t have his salary protected either, they might get a higher increment but they won’t make more than the rank of Constable. There already is a process. Pay is based on positions and classifications not what you made in a previous life. That being said, there is leeway to negociate a higher pay increment at whatever level for someone like a former cop or soldier being appointed. At the end of the day, if someone meets the qualifications for a job, they should apply and they should get priority, but it won’t be given to them on a platter.

No we don’t presently have the bodies. You’re right. But the present ODS will they come back? Won’t they? Causes years of headache while Ottawa does a shell game of who counts as a vacancy and who doesn’t

a vacancy is basically an empty position. ODS people in positions are noted as ODS in those positions.

If you cannot wear a gun and work a night shift- you should not be a regular member of the Royal Canadian mounted police.

Every single officer in the organization should be able to complete the physical test and work without restriction in organization.

I believe there is a list of what constitutes being Regular Member and what they have to do. Agreed.

If a member can be in a position without wearing a gun- civilianize it and make it a CM and we ll retain them.

CMs are being phased out. Not deemed, just not replaced through attrition. I could be wrong but I believe the plan is to convert those attrited positions to PS positions. An issue is that you might never get that RM position back.

I’m tired of medical profiles that say they can’t work night forever. Can’t work with sudden deaths. Can’t work domestic violence because it’s a trigger.

If you’re on a GRW and there’s a systematic approach to coming back and you needed a break after a serious incident- I am 100% in your corner.

You promoted to a corporal job where you work night shift and a month later you show me a medical chit that you can’t work nights anymore? Get fucked with Bells on

It’s a piper dream. You’re all correct. It’ll never work. But my god is the present system broken. It’s all tongue in cheek. It won’t work- you guys are right. I’m just day dreaming.

There are a bunch of things that can/could help. Things like Hiring Managers that could encourage wider exposure to available positions. RMs looking to switch should really get up to speed on how to apply to PS positions. There are some ressources out there for that. Knowing what is available is another.

Admittedly I am not really informed on RCMP transition programs or if they even exist.

These issues are similar to the CAF and dealing with medical releases etc. Maybe some lessons there.

 

[brihard]

Alright. Well we ll all be prisoners of the what the public service thinks is best for public safety.

No we don’t presently have the bodies.

If you cannot wear a gun and work a night shift- you should not be a regular member of the Royal Canadian mounted police.

Every single officer in the organization should be able to complete the physical test and work without restriction in organization.

If a member can be in a position without wearing a gun- civilianize it and make it a CM and we ll retain them.

I’m tired of medical profiles that say they can’t work night forever. Can’t work with sudden deaths. Can’t work domestic violence because it’s a trigger.

If you’re on a GRW and there’s a systematic approach to coming back and you needed a break after a serious incident- I am 100% in your corner.

You promoted to a corporal job where you work night shift and a month later you show me a medical chit that you can’t work nights anymore? Get fucked with Bells on

Everything you say could be brought to pass, but likely at the cost of extensive civilization of managerial, executive, and many investigative support roles that could be filled by someone who must have cop training and experience, but may never need to put on a belt again. The defensible (in the sense of labour law) need to be readable as a bonafide operational requirement decreases quickly starting around Sgt. And not even all Cpl roles… there’s some double-edged sword dancing inherent in moving to a universality of service model.