Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Kirkhill]

I said the same thing 10 years ago when everyone was salivating over the Pivot to the Pacific. Nobody liked it because it would mean acknowledging some uneasy truths about ourselves.

Canada has actual interests in the Caribbean, it would actually make sense to focus efforts there and in Central South America.

It would also strengthen the Commonwealth and associations with the Brits and the Dutch.

 

[JLB50]

It would also strengthen the Commonwealth and associations with the Brits and the Dutch.

As much as I love the Caribbean, somehow this would seem like being relegated to the minor leagues…the not-quite-ready-for-prime-time players.

 

[Kirkhill]

I constantly forget about the French - Haiti is their problem.

French West Indies - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Booter]

As much as I love the Caribbean, somehow this would seem like being relegated to the minor leagues…the not-quite-ready-for-prime-time players.

…soooo Canada?

 

[Kirkhill]

As much as I love the Caribbean, somehow this would seem like being relegated to the minor leagues…the not-quite-ready-for-prime-time players.

I think that is part of our problem. There are lots of jobs that need to get done that we reject out of hand because we want to play in the big leagues. But we don't put in our time in the minor leagues. The Brits and the Yanks spend a lot of time and money doing routine stuff like anti-piracy and anti-poaching efforts and regularly deploy on humanitarian and constabulary missions, even fisheries patrols.

That is how they build skills and connections and rationales for new kit. Not to mention justifying their existence when not engaged in war fighting.

 

[Good2Golf]

As much as I love the Caribbean, somehow this would seem like being relegated to the minor leagues…the not-quite-ready-for-prime-time players.

Relegated generally means others placing someone somewhere.

Canada has, through its own deliberate actions and body of work, positioned itself as…well, to be honest, the bat boy for the minor leagues.

 

[JLB50]

Caribbean’s better than nothing. But there are more important places in the world for a G7 nation to be. Ahhhh, if we only had more ships and more personnel. Remember the old phrase, “Ride to the sound of the guns?”

 

[dimsum]

Caribbean’s better than nothing. But there are more important places in the world for a G7 nation to be.

I'll play devil's advocate.

Being a G7 nation doesn't mean that we have to be involved in all areas of the world. Japan is a G7 nation - how many military deployments do they do, now that they're allowed to have long-term foreign deployments?

We are, at best, a middle player at this point. Maybe it's time to think "regional" rather than "global".

 

[JLB50]

I'll play devil's advocate.

Being a G7 nation doesn't mean that we have to be involved in all areas of the world. Japan is a G7 nation - how many military deployments do they do, now that they're allowed to have long-term foreign deployments?

We are, at best, a middle player at this point. Maybe it's time to think "regional" rather than "global".

I’m not disagreeing with you. Mainly just howling at the moon.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Agree.

So we’re going to fish in the Monroe Doctrine pond? Should be interesting. We finally did join the OAS 30 odd yrs ago.

 

[Czech_pivo]

It would also strengthen the Commonwealth and associations with the Brits and the Dutch.

Barbados ditched Her Majesty, Jamaica is up next. Won’t be much left of the Commonwealth over the next two decades.

 

[Kirkhill]

Barbados ditched Her Majesty, Jamaica is up next. Won’t be much left of the Commonwealth over the next two decades.

All the more reason to bind in on whatever other grounds we can. We are not short of Jamaicans and Bajians in Canada.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Think small, be small.
Think big, be big.

I’d much rather be a smaller fish swimming in a large lake than be a big fish in a small pond.

This country could be so much more than an Australia if we only learned to have some self confidence, stop being so bloody cheap and constantly looking over our shoulder.

 

[Czech_pivo]

All the more reason to bind in on whatever other grounds we can. We are not short of Jamaicans and Bajians in Canada.

We have a heck of a lot more Ukrainians, Poles, Italians, Indians, Chinese than we do of the other two.

 

[JLB50]

Think small, be small.
Think big, be big.

I’d much rather be a smaller fish swimming in a large lake than be a big fish in a small pond.

This country could be so much more than an Australia if we only learned to have some self confidence, stop being so bloody cheap and constantly looking over our shoulder.

You said it perfectly.

 

[Kirkhill]

Think small, be small.
Think big, be big.

I’d much rather be a smaller fish swimming in a large lake than be a big fish in a small pond.

This country could be so much more than an Australia if we only learned to have some self confidence, stop being so bloody cheap and constantly looking over our shoulder.

So why not offer another pole for the Caribbean to coalesce around. This world is rapidly becoming a matter of who you can bring to the party with you. Why not a Canadian coalition?

 

[Dale Denton]

I said the same thing 10 years ago when everyone was salivating over the Pivot to the Pacific. Nobody liked it because it would mean acknowledging some uneasy truths about ourselves.

Canada has actual interests in the Caribbean, it would actually make sense to focus efforts there and in Central South America.

Made me think: If we were pragmatic and had a vision: couldn't we take additional responsibility in the Caribbean and South America from the hands of any of our friends?

RN resources in the area

My "doctrine" would be to shift focus to an area that we could alleviate some strain from our NATO buddies. Europe will be boltering up against Russia for at least the next 10 years, wouldn't it be great if its lazy Canadian friend got up and took over Europe's Caribbean responsibilities?

I'm sure the French, UK and Dutch would appreciate it if we took a leading role of HADR/training in their Caribbean territories, should the time come.

It would be much more sustainable for us. France, UK and Dutch may shut up about us not meeting 2% GDP if we took the load off their hands. It wouldn't require all that much money (although we'd find a way to waste it). On the higher-end, i'd see us making a meaningful difference in an area few are paying attention to.

Off the top of my head, as Supreme Emperor, i'd build a Karel Doorrman or Mistral for global HADR/TG capability, expand our AOR fleet, buy 2 more MCDV replacements and base them in CFB Jamrock (TM) with a Herc or 2, get some riverine CB90s for the RCN and Army. Feel free to add to this...

 

[Remius]

Made me think: If we were pragmatic and had a vision: couldn't we take additional responsibility in the Caribbean and South America from the hands of any of our friends?

RN resources in the area

My "doctrine" would be to shift focus to an area that we could alleviate some strain from our NATO buddies. Europe will be boltering up against Russia for at least the next 10 years, wouldn't it be great if its lazy Canadian friend got up and took over Europe's Caribbean responsibilities?

I'm sure the French, UK and Dutch would appreciate it if we took a leading role of HADR/training in their Caribbean territories, should the time come.

It would be much more sustainable for us. France, UK and Dutch may shut up about us not meeting 2% GDP if we took the load off their hands. It wouldn't require all that much money (although we'd find a way to waste it). On the higher-end, i'd see us making a meaningful difference in an area few are paying attention to.

Off the top of my head, as Supreme Emperor, i'd build a Karel Doorrman or Mistral for global HADR/TG capability, expand our AOR fleet, buy 2 more MCDV replacements and base them in CFB Jamrock (TM) with a Herc or 2, get some riverine CB90s for the RCN and Army. Feel free to add to this...

We literally have the Russians on our Northern border. Our NATO buddies would be happier if we could take care of our own backyard first.

The Caribbean is a European creation. Let them take care of it.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We literally have the Russians on our Northern border. Our NATO buddies would be happier if we could take care of our own backyard first.

The Caribbean is a European creation. Let them take care of it.

Scotia Group disagrees with your assessment:

We have interests in both regions, why not both?

 

[FJAG]

Think small, be small.
Think big, be big.

I’d much rather be a smaller fish swimming in a large lake than be a big fish in a small pond.

This country could be so much more than an Australia if we only learned to have some self confidence, stop being so bloody cheap and constantly looking over our shoulder.

Couldn't agree with you more.

We have a larger GDP than S Korea and Russia. That makes us number 9 in the world. We're roughly 15% ahead of Australia which is number 13.

It may be that our next door neighbour (who is #1 and has 11 times the GDP) gives us an inferiority complex. Or maybe we're led by a government that has tremendous risk aversion and lives in a Pearsonian 1957s fairyland that we are the world's peacekeepers. We played with that role a half century ago and it has become such a strong part of our mythology that it has completely blotted out our actual warfighting history of the War of 1812-4, the Fenian affair, the 1st and 2nd World Wars and Korea and the fact that that role no longer carries any water.

Whatever it is, its resulted in a government that won't do anything but pay lip service to defence and a defence bureaucracy that is more concerned about administrating itself than creating credible defence capabilities.

If we want to carry weight to the table we not only need an effective military but be seen on the world stage (and at the very least by our allies) to be dependable and capable. Sure we play a role in Latvia, but there are NATO countries much smaller than us and with a tiny fraction of our GDP who are doing just as much.

We are seen as cheapskates and dilletants by our allies. What really hurts though is that what we are being seen as is exactly what we are.