Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[JLB50]

It would also strengthen the Commonwealth and associations with the Brits and the Dutch.

As much as I love the Caribbean, somehow this would seem like being relegated to the minor leagues…the not-quite-ready-for-prime-time players.

 

[Kirkhill]

I constantly forget about the French - Haiti is their problem.

French West Indies - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Booter]

As much as I love the Caribbean, somehow this would seem like being relegated to the minor leagues…the not-quite-ready-for-prime-time players.

…soooo Canada?

 

[Kirkhill]

As much as I love the Caribbean, somehow this would seem like being relegated to the minor leagues…the not-quite-ready-for-prime-time players.

I think that is part of our problem. There are lots of jobs that need to get done that we reject out of hand because we want to play in the big leagues. But we don't put in our time in the minor leagues. The Brits and the Yanks spend a lot of time and money doing routine stuff like anti-piracy and anti-poaching efforts and regularly deploy on humanitarian and constabulary missions, even fisheries patrols.

That is how they build skills and connections and rationales for new kit. Not to mention justifying their existence when not engaged in war fighting.

 

[Good2Golf]

As much as I love the Caribbean, somehow this would seem like being relegated to the minor leagues…the not-quite-ready-for-prime-time players.

Relegated generally means others placing someone somewhere.

Canada has, through its own deliberate actions and body of work, positioned itself as…well, to be honest, the bat boy for the minor leagues.

 

[JLB50]

Caribbean’s better than nothing. But there are more important places in the world for a G7 nation to be. Ahhhh, if we only had more ships and more personnel. Remember the old phrase, “Ride to the sound of the guns?”

 

[dimsum]

Caribbean’s better than nothing. But there are more important places in the world for a G7 nation to be.

I'll play devil's advocate.

Being a G7 nation doesn't mean that we have to be involved in all areas of the world. Japan is a G7 nation - how many military deployments do they do, now that they're allowed to have long-term foreign deployments?

We are, at best, a middle player at this point. Maybe it's time to think "regional" rather than "global".

 

[JLB50]

I'll play devil's advocate.

Being a G7 nation doesn't mean that we have to be involved in all areas of the world. Japan is a G7 nation - how many military deployments do they do, now that they're allowed to have long-term foreign deployments?

We are, at best, a middle player at this point. Maybe it's time to think "regional" rather than "global".

I’m not disagreeing with you. Mainly just howling at the moon.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Agree.

So we’re going to fish in the Monroe Doctrine pond? Should be interesting. We finally did join the OAS 30 odd yrs ago.

 

[Czech_pivo]

It would also strengthen the Commonwealth and associations with the Brits and the Dutch.

Barbados ditched Her Majesty, Jamaica is up next. Won’t be much left of the Commonwealth over the next two decades.

 

[Kirkhill]

Barbados ditched Her Majesty, Jamaica is up next. Won’t be much left of the Commonwealth over the next two decades.

All the more reason to bind in on whatever other grounds we can. We are not short of Jamaicans and Bajians in Canada.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Think small, be small.
Think big, be big.

I’d much rather be a smaller fish swimming in a large lake than be a big fish in a small pond.

This country could be so much more than an Australia if we only learned to have some self confidence, stop being so bloody cheap and constantly looking over our shoulder.

 

[Czech_pivo]

All the more reason to bind in on whatever other grounds we can. We are not short of Jamaicans and Bajians in Canada.

We have a heck of a lot more Ukrainians, Poles, Italians, Indians, Chinese than we do of the other two.

 

[JLB50]

Think small, be small.
Think big, be big.

I’d much rather be a smaller fish swimming in a large lake than be a big fish in a small pond.

This country could be so much more than an Australia if we only learned to have some self confidence, stop being so bloody cheap and constantly looking over our shoulder.

You said it perfectly.

 

[Kirkhill]

Think small, be small.
Think big, be big.

I’d much rather be a smaller fish swimming in a large lake than be a big fish in a small pond.

This country could be so much more than an Australia if we only learned to have some self confidence, stop being so bloody cheap and constantly looking over our shoulder.

So why not offer another pole for the Caribbean to coalesce around. This world is rapidly becoming a matter of who you can bring to the party with you. Why not a Canadian coalition?

 

[Dale Denton]

I said the same thing 10 years ago when everyone was salivating over the Pivot to the Pacific. Nobody liked it because it would mean acknowledging some uneasy truths about ourselves.

Canada has actual interests in the Caribbean, it would actually make sense to focus efforts there and in Central South America.

Made me think: If we were pragmatic and had a vision: couldn't we take additional responsibility in the Caribbean and South America from the hands of any of our friends?

RN resources in the area

My "doctrine" would be to shift focus to an area that we could alleviate some strain from our NATO buddies. Europe will be boltering up against Russia for at least the next 10 years, wouldn't it be great if its lazy Canadian friend got up and took over Europe's Caribbean responsibilities?

I'm sure the French, UK and Dutch would appreciate it if we took a leading role of HADR/training in their Caribbean territories, should the time come.

It would be much more sustainable for us. France, UK and Dutch may shut up about us not meeting 2% GDP if we took the load off their hands. It wouldn't require all that much money (although we'd find a way to waste it). On the higher-end, i'd see us making a meaningful difference in an area few are paying attention to.

Off the top of my head, as Supreme Emperor, i'd build a Karel Doorrman or Mistral for global HADR/TG capability, expand our AOR fleet, buy 2 more MCDV replacements and base them in CFB Jamrock (TM) with a Herc or 2, get some riverine CB90s for the RCN and Army. Feel free to add to this...

 

[Remius]

Made me think: If we were pragmatic and had a vision: couldn't we take additional responsibility in the Caribbean and South America from the hands of any of our friends?

RN resources in the area

My "doctrine" would be to shift focus to an area that we could alleviate some strain from our NATO buddies. Europe will be boltering up against Russia for at least the next 10 years, wouldn't it be great if its lazy Canadian friend got up and took over Europe's Caribbean responsibilities?

I'm sure the French, UK and Dutch would appreciate it if we took a leading role of HADR/training in their Caribbean territories, should the time come.

It would be much more sustainable for us. France, UK and Dutch may shut up about us not meeting 2% GDP if we took the load off their hands. It wouldn't require all that much money (although we'd find a way to waste it). On the higher-end, i'd see us making a meaningful difference in an area few are paying attention to.

Off the top of my head, as Supreme Emperor, i'd build a Karel Doorrman or Mistral for global HADR/TG capability, expand our AOR fleet, buy 2 more MCDV replacements and base them in CFB Jamrock (TM) with a Herc or 2, get some riverine CB90s for the RCN and Army. Feel free to add to this...

We literally have the Russians on our Northern border. Our NATO buddies would be happier if we could take care of our own backyard first.

The Caribbean is a European creation. Let them take care of it.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We literally have the Russians on our Northern border. Our NATO buddies would be happier if we could take care of our own backyard first.

The Caribbean is a European creation. Let them take care of it.

Scotia Group disagrees with your assessment:

We have interests in both regions, why not both?

 

[FJAG]

Think small, be small.
Think big, be big.

I’d much rather be a smaller fish swimming in a large lake than be a big fish in a small pond.

This country could be so much more than an Australia if we only learned to have some self confidence, stop being so bloody cheap and constantly looking over our shoulder.

Couldn't agree with you more.

We have a larger GDP than S Korea and Russia. That makes us number 9 in the world. We're roughly 15% ahead of Australia which is number 13.

It may be that our next door neighbour (who is #1 and has 11 times the GDP) gives us an inferiority complex. Or maybe we're led by a government that has tremendous risk aversion and lives in a Pearsonian 1957s fairyland that we are the world's peacekeepers. We played with that role a half century ago and it has become such a strong part of our mythology that it has completely blotted out our actual warfighting history of the War of 1812-4, the Fenian affair, the 1st and 2nd World Wars and Korea and the fact that that role no longer carries any water.

Whatever it is, its resulted in a government that won't do anything but pay lip service to defence and a defence bureaucracy that is more concerned about administrating itself than creating credible defence capabilities.

If we want to carry weight to the table we not only need an effective military but be seen on the world stage (and at the very least by our allies) to be dependable and capable. Sure we play a role in Latvia, but there are NATO countries much smaller than us and with a tiny fraction of our GDP who are doing just as much.

We are seen as cheapskates and dilletants by our allies. What really hurts though is that what we are being seen as is exactly what we are.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Barbados ditched Her Majesty, Jamaica is up next. Won’t be much left of the Commonwealth over the next two decades.

Barbados could still remain a member of Commonwealth of Nations (members of the Commonwealth who no longer have QEII as head of state).