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Informing the Army’s Future Structure

Infantry are dismounted fighters by nature. Mechanized Infantry general go in tracks or wheeled APC/IFV to battle. Motorized Infantry use trucks - though this has been co-opted to also explain wheeled APC/IFV Forces.

What I see as the important distinction is between infantry who expect (and train) to sometimes fight mounted in the vehicles (which must be suited to the purpose), and those who don't. But I admit it's asking a lot to lump all the rest together - what most people think of as light infantry, and the rest who don't fight mounted but don't spend time working with oddball transport and specialized equipment optimized for portability.
 
The infantry brigade combat team is American. Instead of coming across as a rational analysis of Canadian requirements, is appears as fetishing US ORBATS when you keep throwing that terminology around where it is not needed.
That's kind of a loaded statement for a dispassionate discussion of the state of the CA and a path forward.

Is acknowledging the "xBCT" ORBATS (or any foreign/allied ORBAT) as a standard to aspire to/ benchmark against so offensive?
 
The US army has different equipment, personnel, and resource constraints than the CA. It also supports a nation with different strategic objectives. Canadian organizations should be built to meet Canadian requirements. Blanket copying any other nation’s model does not set us on the path to success.
 
All true but what strategic objectives do our infantry forces need to meet?
Do our current light Bns meet them? Are they enabled by the joint forces and do they enable the joint forces? Letting a unit CO ( or worse telling a unit CO to figure out) force employment concepts is a strategic fail, I don’t see how it can be seen as anything but.
 
The US army has different equipment, personnel, and resource constraints than the CA. It also supports a nation with different strategic objectives. Canadian organizations should be built to meet Canadian requirements. Blanket copying any other nation’s model does not set us on the path to success.
That speaks to number of Bde's and or / BG's, type of Bde's BG's, not the composition required once those decisions are made.

What uniquely Canadian requirements call for complete lack of mounted ATGMS, SP Mortars, MANPAD, MANPAT, Direct fire?
Why can't a CMBG be held up against a SBCT and held to account for not delivering?

Bolded, this path to success- it's what we're on now? We've perfected the employment of the medium/light Bde hybrid and no one in the world is set up to do what we want to do better?

(Not disparaging the ability of the personnel in the field), but I think we can all agree that the answers are:
There aren't any, we're lacking
It can, and it doesn't (deliver)
We're not, we haven't, and there are.

Anything else is pure hubris.
 
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Womder how the new Army commander will factor in, from CAF facebook
Honestly, if the analysis is sound and the decisions based on good COAs it should not change much, as the institution has not changed in the last week. However that may be an unrealistic perspective. Bottom line great question, time will tell.
 
I think you are confusing "RCIC" and "Canadian Army" in a lot of things here.
Perhaps, but when Director Infantry on behalf of the RCIC briefs CCA that we need to keep all 9 Bns despite the F2025 plan I will suggest that at minimum it’s both. Maybe what I am seeing is wrong though I will give you that.
 
That speaks to number of Bde's and or / BG's, type of Bde's BG's, not the composition required once those decisions are made.
No. The differences between Canada and the US can translate into many differences of size, composition, and capabilities within brigades.

What uniquely Canadian requirements call for complete lack of mounted ATGMS, SP Mortars, MANPAD, MANPAT, Direct fire?
Nobody said there were “ Canadian requirements call for complete lack” of anything. Your being hyperbolic and making a strawman.

Why can't a CMBG be held up against a SBCT and held to account for not delivering?
Nobody said comparisons can’t be made, but there is no intellectual rigour in defining the requirements for a Canadian battalion entirely in the foundations of what is or is not suitable as for a battalion in a brigade combat team.

Canada does not have echelons above brigade. The US has echelons above corps. We may need things at the battalion or brigade level that do not exist at the same levels in the US. We may not need capabilities or equipment that the US has because we have other ways of achieving the effect. There may also be things in the US structure that we cannot afford.
 
No. The differences between Canada and the US can translate into many differences of size, composition, and capabilities within brigades.


Nobody said there were “ Canadian requirements call for complete lack” of anything. Your being hyperbolic and making a strawman.


Nobody said comparisons can’t be made, but there is no intellectual rigour in defining the requirements for a Canadian battalion entirely in the foundations of what is or is not suitable as for a battalion in a brigade combat team.

Canada does not have echelons above brigade. The US has echelons above corps. We may need things at the battalion or brigade level that do not exist at the same levels in the US. We may not need capabilities or equipment that the US has because we have other ways of achieving the effect. There may also be things in the US structure that we cannot afford.
Not to be a dick, but this seems like vague and defensive equivocation. Call it hyperbolic, but what are these requirements that call for the CMBG as it stands today vs. being a SBCT with chain guns on the carriers (within the combat arms) ?
What are the specific arguments against using SBCT/IBCT battalions as capability benchmarks?
What are some examples of things we have/need at the Bde/Btn level that the US doesn't, and what are some capabilities that we don't have because we (legitimately) have other ways of achieving that effect?
What uniquely Canadian requirements would not be met if we copied the SBCT structure with LAV 6's in place of Strykers?
 
Look, go back and look at the post my initial comment was aimed at. That post made the claim that the problem with our battalions is that the were not US brigade combat team patterned battalions.

The fact that our battalions are different is not, of itself, a problem. There is not a requirement for Canadian units & formations to mirror US, and there are many good reasons for differences.

If you want to take that and stretch it to meaning that there also cannot be similarities, then you are missing the mark.
 
I was not arguing that Cdn units and formations MUST be the exact same as a US unit or formation. Perhaps unclearly I was lamenting the following:

Each light Bn belongs to a Mechanized Bde the majority of whose resources, training and employment is focused on mech battle.

Each light Bn is composed of three Coy none of which share the same focus, Jump, Mountain and other. Meaning it can’t really fight as an Airborne or Mountain Bn.

Each light Bn has a vehicle scale of issue far below an equivalent US IBCT (or Cdn Mech Bn) meaning that they are not as ground mobile as their peers (this is a perennial issue on international exercises) leading to employment challenges.

Given those items I don’t see the CA knowing what they want from the light Bns. Are they similar or equivalent to the capability an IBCT offers? Or an IBCT( Airborne) or the Para Bns within 16 Air Assault Bde(UK) capable of strategic global response type things. Or an air assault element a la an IBCT ( air assault) .

Bottom line is I don’t think three sub units across three units equals as much capability as if they were in one unit. Same holds for three units across three Bdes. So what capability do we actually want, and how does that plug into either our joint force or a NATO combined force.
 
Just a quick question for you. :giggle:

Why does it matter?
a. I'm naturally inquisitive

b. It let's me better understand the capabilities and limitations of our light battalions. I already have a pretty good understanding of the LAV ones.

c. I note that no one has yet actually answered my question.

The US army has different equipment, personnel, and resource constraints than the CA. It also supports a nation with different strategic objectives. Canadian organizations should be built to meet Canadian requirements. Blanket copying any other nation’s model does not set us on the path to success.
Constantly reinventing the wheel when someone else has done all the preliminary research does not set us on a path to success either. Having a good understanding of how similar armies deal with the same fundamental issues of organization is very helpful in mapping out your own.

The BCT system was set up well after the Americans had our example of how we set up a Mech Brigade Group. Seeing how they refined the example is a very useful piece of information - I completely agree that we should not create a blanket copy but we should certainly examine it as an exemplar and then critically examine those places where we differ significantly to fully understand if we have a critical capability gap.

At the battalion level strategic objectives do not matter unless one of them is "we will never engage in X missions". SSE tells us we need to be ready for the full gamut. Simply put, we have no strategic limitations other then that our current mission requirements do not call for deployments above a battle group albeit in the aggregate they could require the better part of a brigade at any given time.

Canada does not have echelons above brigade. The US has echelons above corps. We may need things at the battalion or brigade level that do not exist at the same levels in the US. We may not need capabilities or equipment that the US has because we have other ways of achieving the effect. There may also be things in the US structure that we cannot afford.
The BCT is designed as a combined arms formation capable of decisive action which can operate under either a division or a task force headquarters. Fundamentally it is no different from a CMBG. Both require some form of theatre support and a guiding headquarters.

Divisions provide enablers to brigades. Canada does have above brigade enablers by way of the CCSB. You are obviously correct in that there is a substantial difference in the number and type of national above-brigade enablers available to a BCT and a CMBG. I suspect though that when you say that "we may not need capabilities or equipment that the US has because we have ways of achieving the effect" that its more rationalization than fact.

Most of the variations between Canada's CMBG and a US BCT or a UK BCT are driven by other facts most of which can be described by priorities: priorities on where cash gets spent; priorities based on risk assessments of what resources may not be needed in the near future; political direction on equipment acquisitions; and so on.

It's hard to find an offset for Canada's effects capability deficiencies of artillery, air defence, or anti-armour defence. Those are just the most obvious examples. That's just plain resource allocation. My guess is that if the LDsH ever does become a true tank regiment in 1 CMBG, 3 PPCLI will stay as the brigade's light battalion rather than become a cavalry battalion like in an ABCT (which only has three combined arms [tank/mech infantry] battalions in total) because the Army, for whatever reason, prioritizes the continuation of an infantry battalion above the creation of a brigade cavalry battalion.

🍻
 
c. I note that no one has yet actually answered my question.

I gave you the answer right after you asked it. Only the trucks (4) in the echelon with the CQ and Transport NCO.
 
What I see as the important distinction is between infantry who expect (and train) to sometimes fight mounted in the vehicles (which must be suited to the purpose), and those who don't. But I admit it's asking a lot to lump all the rest together - what most people think of as light infantry, and the rest who don't fight mounted but don't spend time working with oddball transport and specialized equipment optimized for portability.
The unfortunate Canadianism due to the lack of equipment.
Reserve Infantry Units are not Light Infantry, in fact one may argue they aren’t really equipped even as Infantry units is even more tragic.

I think we all agree that the LIB’s should NOT be in the CMBG’s, that tends to reduce their usefulness as well contributes to the outlook that they are just LAVless Mech units.

In all reality I would argue that they should be amalgamated in a Light Bde - will all sorts of Light enablers.
 
Look, go back and look at the post my initial comment was aimed at. That post made the claim that the problem with our battalions is that the were not US brigade combat team patterned battalions.

The fact that our battalions are different is not, of itself, a problem. There is not a requirement for Canadian units & formations to mirror US, and there are many good reasons for differences.

If you want to take that and stretch it to meaning that there also cannot be similarities, then you are missing the mark.

I didn't reply to that post, I replied to yours- which was thinly veiled gatekeeping.
That they're different is not a problem. That they are objectively more poorly equipped and less effective (units, not soldiers) is. There is not a requirement to mirror, and there are good reasons for differences. But I'd argue that (within the realm of medium and light- armor is a different story) given the state of the CA it would be far more productive to take that template as a baseline, try to justify divergence ,and rapidly address any gaps that can't be justified, rather than pretend that the CA is a unicorn with vastly different requirements from medium and light forces and spend years in staff studies coming up with a uniquely Canadian way to meet those requirements.

The questions in post 3749 stand.
 
Interestingly the Canadian Army seems to now be drifting towards having 2 LIBs reporting to the CCSB with each LIB having different tasks and capabilities (ISR, Arctic Response, Force Protection, CIMIC, IRU). Also the Infantry Corps in these discussions is musing if 81mm Mortars are too heavy for a Light Force.
 
Interestingly the Canadian Army seems to now be drifting towards having 2 LIBs reporting to the CCSB with each LIB having different tasks and capabilities (ISR, Arctic Response, Force Protection, CIMIC, IRU).
UGH, FP isn't a good LI role, and ISR isn't specific to LI, I cry
Also the Infantry Corps in these discussions is musing if 81mm Mortars are too heavy for a Light Force.
They can be for certain operations, and too light for others.

Admittedly nothing the CA does shocks me anymore.
 
Interestingly the Canadian Army seems to now be drifting towards having 2 LIBs reporting to the CCSB with each LIB having different tasks and capabilities (ISR, Arctic Response, Force Protection, CIMIC, IRU). Also the Infantry Corps in these discussions is musing if 81mm Mortars are too heavy for a Light Force.

Our mortar platoon jumped and carried them pretty much everywhere, and we in the rifle companies carried alot of their ammo.

Having said that, there needs to be some light vehicles in the mix somewhere to handle more ammo etc.
 
Interestingly the Canadian Army seems to now be drifting towards having 2 LIBs reporting to the CCSB with each LIB having different tasks and capabilities (ISR, Arctic Response, Force Protection, CIMIC, IRU). Also the Infantry Corps in these discussions is musing if 81mm Mortars are too heavy for a Light Force.
Personally I think that Arctic Response would be a good primary role for the 2 x LIB. Meets the requirement of defending Canada/North America in addition to strengthening our Sovereignty in the North. The same arctic mobility vehicle that you'd use for these Arctic Response Battalions would also be useful for NATO (reinforce Norway, Finland, Sweden, Iceland) or any number of 3rd world deployments.

1 RCR in Petawawa could be a Parachute Battalion (capability could be required for a rapid response in the Canadian Arctic or elsewhere) and 2 RCR in Gagetown could specialize in working with our other Arctic assets (shipboard operations of the AOPS, sea-to-shore helicopter operations, small boat operations, etc.).
 
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