Late Cold War Canadian Army

[markppcli]

Looking to see if someone would have a more detailed break down of the 4 CMBG or really any Canadian Brigade order of battle down to say what a platoon or troop looked like. Much appreciated.

 

[ArmyRick]

Following. Are you looking for doctrine or what actually happened?

 

[vonGarvin]

The best source would be to look at 4 CMBG; the other brigade groups were all over the place in terms of ORBAT.
The best available source for this would be Kenneth Macskey's book "First Clash". I'm sure there is an ORBAT in there, if you can get a copy.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The best source would be to look at 4 CMBG; the other brigade groups were all over the place in terms of ORBAT.
The best available source for this would be Kenneth Macskey's book "First Clash". I'm sure there is an ORBAT in there, if you can get a copy.

Sean Maloney’s “War without Battles” has a pretty good ORBAT in Appendix A.

Something specific you are looking for? I have pretty good memory, since I was forced to memorize 4 CMBG down to the section level.

 

[GR66]

This is the one I've usually seen online. I think it might be the one from First Clash but can't find my copy. Sounds like you're looking for more detail though.

 

[DBNSG]

So I was reading my copy a couple of weeks ago;

 

[daftandbarmy]

Looking to see if someone would have a more detailed break down of the 4 CMBG or really any Canadian Brigade order of battle down to say what a platoon or troop looked like. Much appreciated.

Retired guys be like…

 

[markppcli]

Following. Are you looking for doctrine or what actually happened?

The doctrinally correct or at I guess. What was 4 CMBG supposed to fight with I suppose.

 

[markppcli]

This is the one I've usually seen online. I think it might be the one from First Clash but can't find my copy. Sounds like you're looking for more detail though.
View attachment 78900

Umm yeah maybe a touch as to what the companies, batteries, troops, platoons and troops looked like

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Before or after they got the M113? Prior to the M113, all sections rode in 3/4 ton trucks

 

[Ostrozac]

Before or after they got the M113? Prior to the M113, all sections rode in 3/4 ton trucks

But wasn’t riding in trucks only in the 4CIBG days? I think the redesignation to 4CMBG went hand-in-hand with the acquisition of the APCs.

 

[markppcli]

The m113 mechanized days

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The m113 mechanized days

1989? Post creation of 1 Cdn Div, or before?

 

[KevinB]

The platoon didn’t change much in the late 70-80’s other than the SARP changes.

M113 with .50 x4
Each had a M3 Tripod for dismount role / section and 1 M64 (IIRC) AA mount / platoon

10 man section (8 dismount)
8 FN C1A1 2 C2A1 LAR (and later 8 C7 and 2 C9)

1 60mm Mortar, 84mm Carl G for the Weapons Det (I have conflicting info on if the C5 was used - but I lean to that was not used at the platoon and no real GPMG was used in 4CMBG until the C6 came on line) due to the dismount of the M2) the C5 was used as a GPMG in Canada, and for non .50 mounting vehicles both in Canada and overseas

I’m pretty useless outside of that…

While not ORBAT TO&E related it is a good list of units and a pictorial history.

4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group (4 CMBG), Canadian Forces Europe (CFE), 1957-1993

Harold writes articles on Canadian military history, including Military Parachuting, Warplanes, Armour and Artillery, Castles, Fortifications, Sieges and Battles, Warships, The Cold War, Women in the Canadian Forces, First Nations and Black Canadian Military Service. Each article is supported by...

www.silverhawkauthor.com

 

[Blackadder1916]

The doctrinally correct or at I guess. What was 4 CMBG supposed to fight with I suppose.

A picture is worth a thousand words (or so they say). Here's a bunch of pictures that will show the equipment through the years. (Damn, someone beat me to it)

4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group (4 CMBG), Canadian Forces Europe (CFE), 1957-1993

Harold writes articles on Canadian military history, including Military Parachuting, Warplanes, Armour and Artillery, Castles, Fortifications, Sieges and Battles, Warships, The Cold War, Women in the Canadian Forces, First Nations and Black Canadian Military Service. Each article is supported by...

www.silverhawkauthor.com

Though there were obvious and glaring gaps between what doctrine said was establishment (Corps 86 - spit) and reality, the 4 CMBG org chart from First Clash was close enough for government work.

I had a quick rummage through one of my boxes of old useless manuals/handbooks/papers for my copy of the 4 CMBG SOH but couldn't find it. IIRC, that had a close to reality org chart as well as eqpt holdings of what the bde looked like before we closed down. I'll have another look later, but I might have loaned it to someone a few years ago and didn't get it back.

 

[FJAG]

Two comments on the establishment above. The reference to a Blowpipe troop would date this establishment at prior to around 1987. At that point 4th AD Regt was established which provided two airfield air defence batteries (8 x Skyguards and 4 x ADATS each) and one battery for 4 CMBG equipped with 12 x ADATS systems. The Blowpipes were withdrawn. There were also 5 x ResF Javelin troops in Canada designated to augment 4 AD Regt.

Note as well that one of the 4 x M109 batteries was Z Bty a flyover battery based on G Bty 3 RCHA. It had a full complement of equipment and 19 personnel to service it. The rest flew over regularly for exercises. I'm still solidly of the view that a brigade artillery regiment needs one battery per manoeuvre unit and one battery and an STA element for general support. (unless there's a GS regiment/battalion at Div). Z Bty wasn't a true GS battery as it came with an FSCC and a complement of FOOs - so more of a multi-purpose CS/GS battery.

I can't speak much for the rest of the establishment. The times I flew over I was usually FOOing or FACing with Americans or Germans.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Z Bty was a gun battery…period. It wasn’t GS. At least in my day.

In the end days of 4 CMBG (1989-90) with 1 Cdn Div established and 5 Bde being the second manoeuvre Bde of the Div, 3 RCHA essentially became a GS Regt for the Div Arty Bde.

The RCD /8 CH provided a total of 4 tank Sqns- two of which would go to each of 4 and 5 Bde.

 

[markppcli]

Thanks all, I was also interested in when the Eryx came into service but that seems to have been a post Germany purchase.

 

[vonGarvin]

I have conflicting info on if the C5 was used - but I lean to that was not used at the platoon and no real GPMG was used in 4CMBG until the C6 came on line)

Although referred to as a GPMG, the C5 was definitely not "general purpose". I recall it being issued to a scale of 1/platoon, able to be mounted on the M113.

But once the C6 came in, I think it pretty much vanished, though I did learn it on my basic MG course in 1989.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Although referred to as a GPMG, the C5 was definitely not "general purpose". I recall it being issued to a scale of 1/platoon, able to be mounted on the M113.

But once the C6 came in, I think it pretty much vanished, though I did learn it on my basic MG course in 1989.

And don't forget the....