The Arctic

[Underway]

So what is to be done?

1) Get it ready and use it until a facility can be built and used for 3-4 months (or even longer?)
2) Scrap what has been done so far
3) Spend more money and turn it into a proper facility that can be used for 3-4 months of the year
4) Use it (whenever its ready) for the 4-5 weeks of the year that its built for

Which, in your first hand Naval experience is the best path forward for the RCN?

You follow your orders, try to make it work, and let the project become a political football is what you do. Engineering and environment don't care about your bullet points.

 

[Czech_pivo]

You follow your orders, try to make it work, and let the project become a political football is what you do. Engineering and environment don't care about your bullet points.

Rely on Journalists to write about the situation in order to make the general public aware of the situation and then hope that its addressed accordingly?

 

[GR66]

To be fair, who could have predicted that building the facility at an uninhabited, abandoned site would pose more sustainment challenges than building at an existing, populated year-round location?

 

[Underway]

Rely on Journalists to write about the situation in order to make the general public aware of the situation and then hope that its addressed accordingly?

At some point you need to look at it differently.

Example:
Is Alert really necessary anymore? We have satellites and OTH sensors to detect assets in the arctic and intercept Russian signals. You can automate all of Alerts functions, stream the data back to Kingston (or wherever) and do the work there. But because Alert is an expression of sovereignty and a commitment to Canada's arctic it remains as a inhabited outpost despite its complete redundancy. Nanisivik is probably going to be that.

Nanisivik could be another Alert. That was the original plan. But then it was decided to just be a gas station. So you get what you pay for, and because no one is there to ensure the infrastructure remains in repair or up to date you get these problems.

 

[OldSolduer]

At some point you need to look at it differently.

E

Nanisivik could be another Alert. That was the original plan. But then it was decided to just be a gas station. So you get what you pay for, and because no one is there to ensure the infrastructure remains in repair or up to date you get these problems.

Corner Gas?

 

[GK .Dundas]

Part of the problem is quite simple, we keep trying to do defence on the cheap. Our great Northern super base is screwed because we didn't want to spend all that money for the original build and dealing with remediation and so forth.
That and kicking the can down the road almost constantly for the last twenty years or so.
What gets me is the only people who seem to be surprised that they're dealing with almost obscene cost overruns is the Government.
And they keep doing it too , over and over.
Sometimes you just have to bite the damned bullet and spend the money
Well that's my rant for the day.

 

[Kirkhill]

At some point you need to look at it differently.

Example:
Is Alert really necessary anymore? We have satellites and OTH sensors to detect assets in the arctic and intercept Russian signals. You can automate all of Alerts functions, stream the data back to Kingston (or wherever) and do the work there. But because Alert is an expression of sovereignty and a commitment to Canada's arctic it remains as a inhabited outpost despite its complete redundancy. Nanisivik is probably going to be that.

Nanisivik could be another Alert. That was the original plan. But then it was decided to just be a gas station. So you get what you pay for, and because no one is there to ensure the infrastructure remains in repair or up to date you get these problems.

The other thing to remember is that Nanisivik wasn't virgin ground.

Nanisivik Mine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nanisivik - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nanisivik Naval Facility - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nanisivik (Inuktitut: ᓇᓂᓯᕕᒃ, lit. 'the place where people find things'; /nəˈniːsɪvɪk/) is a now-abandoned company town which was built in 1975 to support the lead-zinc mining and mineral processing operations for the Nanisivik Mine, in production between 1976 and 2002. The townsite is located just inland from Strathcona Sound, about 20 km (12 mi) east of the community of Arctic Bay in the Canadian territory of Nunavut.

There is a port and dock about 3.7 km (2.3 mi) north of the abandoned mine site, which was used for shipping concentrate from the site, and receiving supplies (73°04′08″N 084°32′57″W). It is used by the Canadian Coast Guard for training.

Nanisivik Airport, located 8 nautical miles (15 km; 9.2 mi) south, was used as the main airport for Arctic Bay until 2010, when the lengthened Arctic Bay Airport took over. The airport is about 19 km (12 mi) directly southeast of Arctic Bay but the road between them is 32 km (20 mi).

The community of Nanisivik was originally built to support the Nanisivik Mine, a lead-zinc mine on Baffin Island. The mine was serviced by a jetty for receiving ocean freight, later used by the Canadian Coast Guard for training, and the Nanisivik Airport, which was capable of receiving jet aircraft and closed in 2011. Falling metal prices and shrinking resources led to the mine's closure in 2002.

On 8 August 2007, CBC News reported documents from the Canadian Forces showing plans to convert the site into a naval station. The plan was to turn the former mine's existing port into a deepwater facility at a cost of $60 million. On 10 August 2007, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced construction of a new docking and refuelling facility at Nanisivik for the Canadian Forces, in an effort to maintain a Canadian presence in Arctic waters during the navigable season (June–October). The choice for Nanisivik as a site was partially based on its location within the eastern entrance to the Northwest Passage, via Admiralty Inlet, and the existence of a deep-water berthing facility at the site, as well as a location of the airport. The United States Air Force's Thule Air Base is 600 km (370 mi) to the northeast in Greenland.

On 20 August 2010, the Kingston-class coastal defence vessel HMCS Goose Bay became the first Canadian warship to secure to the Nanisivik jetty as part of Operation Nanook. Two days later, the frigate HMCS Montréal secured alongside for a photo opportunity. The Coast Guard icebreaker CCGS Henry Larsen was also present, but did not go alongside at that time.

Somehow we have got from a deepwater port with a jetty that could trans-ship bulk exports and incoming freight, that was on the Coast Guard's and Navy's map, that had a useable airfield airfield that could receive jets, and that previously supported a small community for 26 years to this:

In a 2024 update, it was announced the facility is slated to open in 2025. The updated site plan includes unheated fuel storage tanks and pipelines, a site office, a wharf's operator shelter, an unheated storage building, and a helicopter pad. The unheated fuel tanks require testing of the stored fuel before it can used by the docked ships. Due to the unheated fuel tanks limited capability, the base can only operate for four to five weeks before the temperatures begin to affect the stored fuel. The existing jetty underwent repair. During the COVID-19 pandemic, construction was delayed and the road connecting the base to the nearest airport washed away. The road had to be rebuilt and was again operational in 2022. Furthermore, the federal government entered into an agreement with the Nunavut government preventing any icebreaking in the area to maintain the local population's access to sea ice and protect local wildlife.

....

I can only conclude that we were different people then.

Ore discovery​

Arthur English was a prospector on CGS Arctic, the steamship of Captain Joseph-Elzéar Bernier, as part of the Geological Survey of Canada in 1910. They wintered the 1910-11 winter in Arctic Bay (20 km (12 mi) south-east of Nanisivik). In 1911 Arthur English published his discovery of a "very large body of ore" at Nanisivik.

Development​

J.F. Tibbitt and F. McInnes travelled from Churchill, Manitoba to Nanisivik by dog sled (3,000 km [1,900 mi]) and staked their claims in 1937, but were unable to develop them. In 1956 R. G. Blackadar and R. R. H. Lemon published maps of the region for another Geological Survey of Canada. Soon thereafter Texas Gulf Sulfur Company (later Texasgulf Inc., now broken up into bits such as Intrepid Potash) evaluated the region and staked 15 claims. Extensive drilling and exploration over the next decade led to the procurement of heavy equipment in 1970 and bulk metallurgical testing. Mineral Resources International of Calgary, Alberta, traded the rights to a sulphur deposit in Mexico for a long term option on the Strathcona Sound property, which eventually translated into 54% ownership of Nanisivik Mines Limited. Strathcona Mineral Services Limited was hired to run the mine as an independent manager and successfully initiated production.

Operation​

The mine opened in 1976 and yielded primarily zinc, however silver and lead were collected as by-products. It is in 500 m-thick (1,600 ft) permafrost, 700 km (430 mi) north of the Arctic Circle and operated year-round through accumulating ore during the winter and shipping in the summer (July–November). Annual production totalled 125,000 tons of ore, which was sold to European smelters via Belgium.

Conwest Exploration Company Ltd. eventually acquired the mine.

Mine closure​

Since the closure of the mine in 2002, reclamation has been ongoing and the town is abandoned. Residents of Arctic Bay had hoped that the Government of Nunavut would be able to find a new use for the former town site, potentially a trades training centre. They had also hoped to be able to move some of the buildings and equipment to their community. Due to heavy lead-zinc contamination, this was not possible and the homes have been demolished. Local telephone service was discontinued on February 19, 2007, on approval from CRTC.

As of the 2006 census the population was 0, a drop from the 2001 census with a population of 77.

....

So a northern community of 77 mostly Inuit, maintained a mine, operating heavy equipment, shipping ore in bulk from a port with jetty and airfield, for 26 years. 5 years after closure of the mine the community was still looking for opportunities to continue in existence. The government of the day did two things:

1 it cancelled local phone service
2 it announced the conversion of the facility to a naval facility.

18 years of fiddle-farting around and everything is broken and the community is dispersed - except for those people objecting to ice-breaking because they use the ice to cross the sound for hunting.

...

Start pointing fingers.

 

[Kirkhill]

A 1995 review of mining operations.

The Nanisivik project is in the eastern Canadian Arctic at latitude 73° N, about 750 km north of the Arctic Circle. Winters are long and cold but temperature extremes are moderated by proximity to the Arctic and Atlantic oceans. Permafrost extends to depths of 500 m or more, and rock temperatures in the mine average minus 12° Celsius (McNeil et al, 1993). The area is a dry semi-desert with annual precipitation of 125 mm. Vegetation is sparse. Good surface rock exposure is limited to cliffs and creek beds since the more gentle slopes are covered by felsenmeer and glacial deposits.

Nanisivik has proven to be a low-cost producer despite its location. It is accessible to ocean shipping which reduces transport costs, and the deposit geology is amenable to efficient mining and milling methods. Annual output is about 100,000 tonnes of concentrate containing 55 % zinc, produced from 750,000 tonnes of mined ore. Most of the ore is mined from room and pillar stopes using wheeled equipment.

The project supports a community of 350 people, which includes a school, recreational facilities, and a jet airport. The mine staff comes from all over Canada and includes about 25 % Northerners. Most people go “out” on vacation two or three times a year.

https://pubs.geoscienceworld.org/segweb/books/edited-volume/1931/chapter-abstract/107705913/Geology-of-Nanisivik-Mine-N-W-T-Canada?redirectedFrom=fulltext

So not 77 inhabitants but 350. The 77 sounds like the "25% Northerners" mentioned above.

Year round occupation. Seasonal shipping. Northerners and Southerners gainfully employed and raising families with enough spare change to afford to fly out for two or three vacations a year.

And when the mine closed down at least some of the locals were sufficiently attached to the place that they tried to save their lifestyle.

...

I wonder how much POL it took annually to sustain operations.

 

[Kirkhill]

And it is not a one off

Baffinland

Canadian mining company, mining iron ore in the Qikiqtani region of North Baffin, Nunavut, Canada.

www.baffinland.com

Mary River Mine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Mary River Mine is an open-pit iron ore mine in the Mary River area of Baffin Island, Canada. It is operated by the Baffinland Iron Mines Corporation (BIMC). As of 2021, the operation consists of an open-pit mine, two work camps for hundreds of workers, a tote road—from the Mary River site to Milne Inlet—and port infrastructure at Milne Inlet. According to a 4-year study published in 2008, the Mary River Mine, with its four massive iron ore deposits of 65-70% pure iron ore was "one of the most promising undeveloped iron deposits on the planet". It was not until technological advances were in place in 2010, and the market for iron ore had dramatically increased that sizable financial backing was available for the high cost of development in a remote region known for its inhospitable climate. The mine began operations in 2014, and the first shipment to Europe arrived in 2015. Baffinland is currently planning on expanding the mine.

Mary River 71°19′24″N 079°12′38″W
Nanisivik 73°02′40″N 084°32′14″W



Fed Nav Ships servicing the area
Arvik I - 2021 (Japan Marine United Corp, 31,000 DWT, PC4)
Nunavik - 2014 (Japan Marine United Corp, 28,000 DWT, PC4 / DNV ICE-15)
Umiak 1 - 2006 (Universal Shipbuilding Corp - Japan, 32,000 DWT, DNV ICE-15)

Fednav - www.fednav.com

Fednav excels in navigating the Canadian Arctic, Great Lakes, and St. Lawrence Seaway. With a fleet of 120 dry bulk carriers, we ensure seamless worldwide shipping.

www.fednav.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Mary River mine needs a railway to survive, new economic report says

Newspaper of record for Nunavut, and the Nunavik territory of Quebec

nunatsiaq.com

To date, Baffinland has invested a total of US$3.5 billion into the project, and has seen cash flow losses totalling $310 million since 2016.

Now, the mine generates 24 per cent of Nunavut’s gross domestic product and employs 288 Inuit.

 

[Kirkhill]

Plan B.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/baffinland-steensby-inlet-railway-1.6752613

Mary River to Steensby.
Steensby to Antwerp

Or

Churchill to Steensby
Steensby to Milne Inlet (by existing road)
(Alternate to Nanisivik)

Or

Churchill to Antwerp

 

[Furniture]

At some point you need to look at it differently.

Example:
Is Alert really necessary anymore? We have satellites and OTH sensors to detect assets in the arctic and intercept Russian signals. You can automate all of Alerts functions, stream the data back to Kingston (or wherever) and do the work there. But because Alert is an expression of sovereignty and a commitment to Canada's arctic it remains as a inhabited outpost despite its complete redundancy. Nanisivik is probably going to be that.

Nanisivik could be another Alert. That was the original plan. But then it was decided to just be a gas station. So you get what you pay for, and because no one is there to ensure the infrastructure remains in repair or up to date you get these problems.

In fairness to Alert, it does a lot of things beyond SigInt.

The world depends on the Met data produced by ECCC up there, as well as the Met data provided by the CAF. Many OGDs have sensors there that require maintenance and monitoring.

 

[Kirkhill]

Plan B.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/baffinland-steensby-inlet-railway-1.6752613

View attachment 93310


Mary River to Steensby.
Steensby to Antwerp

Or

Churchill to Steensby
Steensby to Milne Inlet (by existing road)
(Alternate to Nanisivik)

Or

Churchill to Antwerp

Again I wonder if it's not the time to look at the Rangers as not just ground forces but expand some numbers in key communities to add a limited maritime aspect. Not replace the RCN and definitely not to create a fully capable amphibious assault trade like the USMC.

Context I'm thinking is wildfire responses where we come in with a large number of ground resources, some aviation lift and some heavy equipment. And for 95% of the wildfires that's all you need. But then you get the other fires where a major waterbody is in the way like the Peace River, Athabasca River, or take your pick of lakes in Ontario. Crews can get to a staging area via existing transport easily...but on the wrong side of the barrier.

Solution - charter jet boats or larger private fishing boats to become ferries. If I can hire a boat + captain who knows the local area for the cost of flying a medium helicopter for an hour...pretty easy math on sustained operations. Plus they are not affected by the same visibility rules as private aviation can be.

So double a Ranger Patrol manpower strength in Tuktoyaktuk, Churchill, Rankin Inlet, Iqaluit, Moosonee or other communities and provide them with 3 good sized boats each as a means of doing limited, inshore only/river, patrols and transportation. Or heck...summer patrol via boat and snowmobile in winter. Make it a boat big enough for a section of troops to be carried and now you can start doing more dispersed drop offs....and I only say section due to both a) reasonable size of formed unit and b) Ukraine is showing lots of small units dispersed is the way of the future.

This is a 30' option and while I can't tell keel depth I have to imagine it's shallow enough to be effective in most of the environments I described above. https://www.raiderboats.com/boats-dealership--offshore-series

...

All this talk about the Arctic, and connectivity and trade/energy corridors got me wondering about connecting Schefferville to Kuujjuaq.

Apparently, as usual, I am a day late and a dollar short. Quebec has already developed a road/rail/fiber optic plan. And it also has a plan for a deep water port on the Great Whale River.

Nunavik’s Fiber Optic Project has Begun

The Alcatel Submarine Networks cable ship arrived off Puvirnituq shore in Northern Canada on August 6.

www.highnorthnews.com

$123.9 million additional funding announced for high-speed internet in Arctic Quebec

An additional $123.9 million for better internet service in Nunavik, the Inuit region of Arctic Quebec, was announced on Wednesday, by the Quebec, federal and Kativik Regional Government (KRG). The money is on top of the approximate $125 million previously announced since 2018. " Access to hig

www.rcinet.ca

Nunavimmiut to get sneak peek at potential road link to south

Newspaper of record for Nunavut, and the Nunavik territory of Quebec

nunatsiaq.com

The Great Whale port would be at Kuujjuarapik on Hudson Bay with a road connection to Radisson.

It seems to me that the connector to Kuujjuaq could be an especially useful strategic link shortening the transport link to Baffin Island.



Northern Ports?

Inuvik, Grays Bay, Churchill/Nelson, Moosonee, Kuujuarapik, Kuujjuaq, Iqaluit.

Then add short haul air services from those ports.

 

[Kirkhill]

For those concerned about managing shallow waters - this is Liverpool. They created a system of locks as commonly employed on graving or dry docks.

Langton Dock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

....

The port of Bristol started dredging operations, diverting rivers and building locks from at least 1240 when the first deep keeled hulls with rudders were invented.

Bristol Harbour - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

....

There is always an element of "hope" associated with every course of action.

 

[Cloud Cover]

This is what happens when politicians make military operational decisions.

There’s an inference in that article that at the end of the “season” or “window”, the fuel has to be removed from the tanks.

There’s are quite a few companies operating in the North/Far North and Arctic that are not experiencing these problems. What are they doing that the RCN/ CAF is not? Does CFS Alert have these problems?

 

[Blackadder1916]

There’s an inference in that article that at the end of the “season” or “window”, the fuel has to be removed from the tanks.

There’s are quite a few companies operating in the North/Far North and Arctic that are not experiencing these problems. What are they doing that the RCN/ CAF is not? Does CFS Alert have these problems?

Seems to be a problem wherever it is really, really cold.

Arctic Russia - Arctic fuel depot: Engineers battling the cold

In lieu of a thousand barrels

arctic-russia.ru

. . . Frost-resistant steel, double walls, precise welding of elements and the incorporation of heating elements are all necessary to prevent diesel from turning into a murky 'compote' with paraffin crumbs at –50°C.

 

[Zoomie]

There’s an inference in that article that at the end of the “season” or “window”, the fuel has to be removed from the tanks.

There’s are quite a few companies operating in the North/Far North and Arctic that are not experiencing these problems. What are they doing that the RCN/ CAF is not? Does CFS Alert have these problems?

CFS Alert has millions of liters of fuel stored in massive fuel tanks. All year long.

Jet fuel has a very low freezing point - especially with FSII.

We also store diesel fuel in outdoor fuel tanks for the vehicles - no real issues.

 

[childs56]

There’s an inference in that article that at the end of the “season” or “window”, the fuel has to be removed from the tanks.

There’s are quite a few companies operating in the North/Far North and Arctic that are not experiencing these problems. What are they doing that the RCN/ CAF is not? Does CFS Alert have these problems?

Companies figure out a way to make money and be profitable.
The government finds a way to pay a company (s) in Central Canada to pretend to do work and make research projects to line their pockets. Then deliver a inferior product with little to any consequences.

 

[lenaitch]

There’s an inference in that article that at the end of the “season” or “window”, the fuel has to be removed from the tanks.

There’s are quite a few companies operating in the North/Far North and Arctic that are not experiencing these problems. What are they doing that the RCN/ CAF is not? Does CFS Alert have these problems?

Unheated, uninsulated tanks, along with nobody there year-round to keep the lights on might have something to do with it.

 

[Underway]

Companies figure out a way to make money and be profitable.
The government finds a way to pay a company (s) in Central Canada to pretend to do work and make research projects to line their pockets. Then deliver a inferior product with little to any consequences.

I'm calling out this Central Canada BS. Check your facts. BC company did the design and environmental., nothern companies are hired to do a lot of the subcontracting. Money was spread around quite a bit.

This anti-central canada reflex is tiresome. Transmountain (build by westerners, run by westerners) was sooo on time and on budget. Its going to take a long time and a lot of contracts to match that one. I can list more governments wasting tax dollars in western canada if you like, including western governments wasting their own tax dollars. Grifting governments is a national sport, not regional.