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Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

C5 CBRN Low Burden Mask[23]
40px-Flag_of_Canada_%28Pantone%29.svg.png
Canada
Gas mask77,800[24]Includes 155,600 filter canisters.[24]

Prowling through wiki's equipment list I came across this.

Apparently we bought 77,800 gas masks with 2 filter canisters each.

What happens when you consume your allotment of two canisters?

....

They are like ammunition and rations. They are consumables. Is there a plan for producing them by the millions?
 
pardon me, but it is a purpose built system. Just because the frame comes from Ford doesn't lessen the utility of the system nor does it instantly place the homebuilt label on it. It is as the article said the most common vehicle in Ukraine. The why for that is probably a simple matter of economics. If I have a constrained budget and need as many vehicles as possible to provide a reasonable amount of protection it is a logical choice. And who is the better judge? Ukraine has tried every western vehicle on the used car lot. They love the Swedish product and the Roshel the Lav not so much. They don't refuse them but I don't think they have ordered any either.
Cheap and available are some reasons for Ukraine buying them, but also the donations and color of money used for them are very important. It also doesn’t mean that any other nation that isn’t in the same boat should follow suit.

The same issues occur with the Lenco Bearcat and other conversion methods.
It isn’t uncommon to any standard chassis system that is then attempted to be adapted to an armored system by adding a conversion kit.

Same for Logistics vehicles that get add ons as opposed to being purpose built.

You may notice that I’m not a fan of armor conversions for commercial vehicles.
There is only one place where I am okay with them, and that is for low visibility armor roles where a dedicated armored vehicle isn’t a good idea.

Unless you start from scratch you are going to have a lot of holes, or weak spots, they may only be small, but mostly they tend to allow flammable liquids where they really shouldn’t be.

Too often crews of those vehicles are not informed of their actual protection and armor levels.

Now as far as the Senator goes, they do keep improving the design and increasing the protection. It’s also getting more expensive, and less and less a Ford 550 built up, but a dedicated armored vehicle with some commercial parts. Which removes a lot of the benefits for some users of having a 550 chasis/power train.

That starts to get into the JLTV role from ‘Last War’.

From an economic standpoint point - of you think the vehicle may be in contact, get a real armored vehicle, and if they aren’t planned for that just get a ton of stock commercial vehicles and right them off if they take a stray round.
 
Apparently we bought 77,800 gas masks with 2 filter canisters each.

What happens when you consume your allotment of two canisters?

....

They are like ammunition and rations. They are consumables. Is there a plan for producing them by the millions?
They are backwards compatible based off a NATO standard. The plan is to leverage the existing supply in depot and if they run low use the standing offer to buy more.
 
They are backwards compatible based off a NATO standard. The plan is to leverage the existing supply in depot and if they run low use the standing offer to buy more.
You bought less masks than you need for the military.
You bought less filters than needed for a 72hr period.

I’m not sure ‘if you run low’ that JIT should be a good idea for things like that.
 
Cheap and available are some reasons for Ukraine buying them, but also the donations and color of money used for them are very important. It also doesn’t mean that any other nation that isn’t in the same boat should follow suit.

The same issues occur with the Lenco Bearcat and other conversion methods.
It isn’t uncommon to any standard chassis system that is then attempted to be adapted to an armored system by adding a conversion kit.

Same for Logistics vehicles that get add ons as opposed to being purpose built.

You may notice that I’m not a fan of armor conversions for commercial vehicles.
There is only one place where I am okay with them, and that is for low visibility armor roles where a dedicated armored vehicle isn’t a good idea.

Unless you start from scratch you are going to have a lot of holes, or weak spots, they may only be small, but mostly they tend to allow flammable liquids where they really shouldn’t be.

Too often crews of those vehicles are not informed of their actual protection and armor levels.

Now as far as the Senator goes, they do keep improving the design and increasing the protection. It’s also getting more expensive, and less and less a Ford 550 built up, but a dedicated armored vehicle with some commercial parts. Which removes a lot of the benefits for some users of having a 550 chasis/power train.

That starts to get into the JLTV role from ‘Last War’.

From an economic standpoint point - of you think the vehicle may be in contact, get a real armored vehicle, and if they aren’t planned for that just get a ton of stock commercial vehicles and right them off if they take a stray round.

I can't help but wonder how many stray rounds those LRDG and SAS trucks took. Or for that matter Land Rovers and Jeeps between 1945 and 2000.
 
You bought less masks than you need for the military.
You bought less filters than needed for a 72hr period.

I’m not sure ‘if you run low’ that JIT should be a good idea for things like that.
We have, presumably, a whole bunch of canisters for the old gas masks. They fit on the new gas masks. In addition to all the canisters we already have we bought two more canisters for each mask, so they can each be immediately issued with two canisters.

The sustainment contract is different than the contract for initial issue. There are a bunch in storage and a plan to buy more when that stock dips below a certain threshold. That is not JIT delivery, that is regular old school warehousing.

Does the warehouse hold enough stock? Can that stock be replenished in a reasonable amount of time? Maybe, maybe not. But those are different issues. Important questions, but not part of this purchase. Those are the same problems that existed with the old masks. Nothing has changed in how we manage canisters.

If the contract for the blue fleet trucks specifies they are all delivered with a working wiper blades, it isn't part of the contract that Ford to supply us with 10 years of wiper blades for each truck. A different project, run by a different person, buys spare wipers when we need them. Consumables are managed different and come out of a different pot than capital purchases. I am not a fin expert, but I believe this is the crux of vote 5 vs a vote 1 monies and how they are spent.
 
Well...

Projects are responsible for initial sparing, and for consumables. Normally those are intended to cover a certain time period. Consumables include ammunition.

There have been institutional bad habits where projects would focus on maximizing the number of platforms purchased, in part by reducing the spend on initial sparing / initial ammunition acquisition, thereby pushing those problems to National Procurement. Or just ignoring certain requirements, assuming that the end-user would find the money to address those things. There is increasing pressure to ensure that such shortcuts do not get taken.

Commercial fleets, however, are not managed that way.
 
Well...

Projects are responsible for initial sparing, and for consumables. Normally those are intended to cover a certain time period. Consumables include ammunition.

There have been institutional bad habits where projects would focus on maximizing the number of platforms purchased, in part by reducing the spend on initial sparing / initial ammunition acquisition, thereby pushing those problems to National Procurement. Or just ignoring certain requirements, assuming that the end-user would find the money to address those things. There is increasing pressure to ensure that such shortcuts do not get taken.

Commercial fleets, however, are not managed that way.

Can of worms time -

Would the missiles for the RCD destroyers be covered under the capital project or would they come out of National Procurement? Or would it be some combination of the two?
 
Can of worms time -

Would the missiles for the RCD destroyers be covered under the capital project or would they come out of National Procurement? Or would it be some combination of the two?
Every time I see RCD I read it as Royal Canadian Dragoons not River Class Destroyers. It always takes me a second to parse what someone is talking about. Internal monologue: "Wait, the Dragoons are getting tank destroyers with missiles?! Ohhh...the Navy's new ships will have missiles. Well, good for them but not as cool as I first imagined"
 
Would the missiles for the RCD destroyers be covered under the capital project or would they come out of National Procurement? Or would it be some combination of the two?
What about maintenance facilities for those missiles. Sure I've sand blasted 105mm sitting in a triwall, and remarked them in mod tent, but I think modern missiles need a bit more TLC.
 
What about maintenance facilities for those missiles. Sure I've sand blasted 105mm sitting in a triwall, and remarked them in mod tent, but I think modern missiles need a bit more TLC.

We don't have maintenance facilities?
Maybe we should have production facilities then we could use them to maintain our missiles as well?
 
We don't have maintenance facilities?
Not for liquid fueled missiles made in Europe. Nor for liquid fueled ones made in the US, but it's easy to truck Harpoons to the manufacturer. I guess as they are wooden rounds we can just chuck them in the Atlantic and they will float back to Norway when the sea lanes are contested.
The Aussies are building a plant, is that a good option to share?
 
Not for liquid fueled missiles made in Europe. Nor for liquid fueled ones made in the US, but it's easy to truck Harpoons to the manufacturer. I guess as they are wooden rounds we can just chuck them in the Atlantic and they will float back to Norway when the sea lanes are contested.
The Aussies are building a plant, is that a good option to share?

Oh, what-the-hell! We don't want to attack anybody anyway.

If we did get missile facilities I presume we would follow past practice and repeat the Iltis experience - buy the licences for the obsolete and obsolescent - Harpoons and TOWs rather than JSM/NSM and Javelins or Heros.
 
This article

JUST IN: Army Has Little to Show for its Efforts to Boost Air and Missile Defense, GAO Finds​

6/17/2025
By Tabitha Reeves


gao.jpg


A 2016 test of the Integrated Fire Protection Capability at White Sand Missile Range in New Mexico.
Army photo

The Army has little to show for its recent efforts to upgrade its air and missile defense systems despite putting them on the development fast track and spending billions of dollars in funding, the Government Accountability Office reported June 17.

"The Army chose accelerated acquisition pathways and flexible agreement types to develop and field systems to address required capabilities — and submitted increased funding requests through the budget process to support them — but has not yet fielded most of the air and missile defense modernization efforts," said the report, "Army Modernization: Air and Missile Defense Efforts Would Benefit from Modern Practices."

“The Army is spending billions of dollars to modernize its systems to address identified capability needs,” the report said. “Yet, even with the use of accelerated acquisition approaches and increases in funding, the Army, outside of [Counter-small Unmanned Aerial Systems], has fielded limited capabilities,” the report added.

The Army has renewed its focus on updating its air and missile defense systems in recent years to keep pace with potential adversaries such as China and Russia. The Ukraine war has also seen inventive and increased use of drones as flying munitions although the service's efforts began before the beginning of that conflict, GAO noted.

In 2021, the Army requested roughly $8.8 billion for these air and missile systems for the fiscal years 2021 through 2025. By 2025, the Army had requested about $11.8 billion for the systems — a $3 billion increase, which was due to “the inclusion of systems that did not appear in the fiscal year 2021 budget request, … as well as changes in funding needed,” said the report.

It occurs to me that Ukraine has got it good. Nobody questions if they bought a good missile or a bad one, if it was the right one or the wrong one, if they could have bought a better one. All anybody asks is that they keep throwing stuff into the sky and do what they can with what they can get ahold of. Thank God there's a war on. Do better tomorrow.

Meanwhile, in the absence of a war, in the absence of real world testing of decisions everybody is afraid that they might make the wrong decision. That there might be a better solution tomorrow. And wouldn't that look bad if I approved a system that was second best by next year.

So, out of fear of not doing the best thing no thing is done.

....

Something is better than nothing. And if something is not the best then we are back to those procurement issues of being able to act and react faster to bring in new systems.
 
Oh, what-the-hell! We don't want to attack anybody anyway.

If we did get missile facilities I presume we would follow past practice and repeat the Iltis experience - buy the licences for the obsolete and obsolescent - Harpoons and TOWs rather than JSM/NSM and Javelins or Heros.
We can maintain TOW and most solid fuel land missiles until the cows come home. We also regularly build AIMs of various types. Given the material handling even SMx maintenance could be done (big cannisters, sealed, etc).
But liquid fueled rocketry is a new capability. We have experience with Otto fuel for torps so it is of course possible to learn, but it does need dedicated infrastructure.
 
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