2025 Wildfire Season

[Colin Parkinson]

Military transport again is a huge thing for me and I'd love to see a significant increase in all lift capacity within the CAF...especially heavy lift but not sure what the options are now the C17 line is closed.

To be fair our Transport fleet with the C130J, C17]s and now the MTT is likley the best it's ever been. I have to give the JT Liberals full credit for the MTT buy (I think I just threw up a bit , writing that).

 

[RangerRay]

Oh I'm fully aware of what your hinting at. Used to be much more of an issue.

Until you bring out of area resources in to fight the fires and locals don't get work....changes things fast. But many different situations come into play when you deal with ignitions by people. Mental health, economic pressures (to get work or hide crimes), cultural, hero worship (people want to be the hero so start fires to be the center of attention putting them out), or just plain bad luck and stupidity.

Always something new to learn and new experience to be gained is all I know.

Don’t forget boredom.

I’m familiar with case where two guys from a remote community were bored. So they decided that each would light fires at opposite ends of the valley to see whose fire would attract the tankers first.

 

[foresterab]

Don’t forget boredom.

I’m familiar with case where two guys from a remote community were bored. So they decided that each would light fires at opposite ends of the valley to see whose fire would attract the tankers first.

Lots of fires after school gets out in some areas as well for the same reason. Excitement and reality TV live.

I prefer to think of ways to provide meaningful hope for those kids to have a future instead of dwelling on why that's the only option they feel they have.

 

[lenaitch]

All I can think of is doing something like the following:

1) purchase C17's from European users as they transition to Airbus 400M's? Or Canada does the opposite but the end goal would be to increase the number of airframes.

2) Expand the C-130 fleet?

3) This is maybe where Canada gets in the game. The Bombardier Q-400 has been working well in many roles. Does an expanded fleet of these frames using a Q-400M airframe (a multi-role varient that allow passager or cargo or waterbombers?) align with some of the artic mission objectives? I believe there is a large number of them also in use in the civilian world for servincing remote northern communities.

4) Do we go to the light aircraft world of Turbo beavers and Twin Otters? Again thinking northern, remote access areas but can also work on skis. New modern version are available just in low production due to high frame costs (again a reflection of low production) but larger orders may assist both military and civilian use.

Just in terms of fire suppression, two problems with land-based equipment is the need to have suitable facilities at airports and the cycle time lost in transiting to and from airports and replenishing. Obviously, in an area of few lakes or oceans, it's not an issue but much of the fire-vulnerable area of Canada is fairly water-adjacent.

 

[foresterab]

Just in terms of fire suppression, two problems with land-based equipment is the need to have suitable facilities at airports and the cycle time lost in transiting to and from airports and replenishing. Obviously, in an area of few lakes or oceans, it's not an issue but much of the fire-vulnerable area of Canada is fairly water-adjacent.

Some areas are excellent for cycle times and scooper lakes...Ontario, MB, SK come to mind. Parts of the Okanogan as well.

Alberta and northern BC...not so much. Some lakes especially in the NE AB but frankly I don't get to see the CL-215's or AT-802U's much due to lack of scooper capable lakes. There's some big water bodies by surface area but many are more like shallow duck ponds than true deep lakes which can cause issues.

I know Ontario has the Twin Otter scooper units but have never seen them in action to compare against the AT-802U. CL-415 vs. CL-215 need a medium sized lake and while I know they can land on rivers (saw one land in Thailand in middle of a river in Bangkok) it's a question of straightness, depth, and banks to allow safe approach.

The other challage is the size of plane vs. topography....I love the sights but hate the experience of flying over the mountain ridges and dealing the the air thermal changes on each side. Larger aircraft tend to handle it better than the smaller tankers like the AT-802's but if conditions are good the little guys can nip into the valley where the big units like the Electra L-180's can not.

Point I'm trying to make is I don't know if there is a perfect airframe for use across Canada. There are some very good planes for X situation and there are better planes for Y. The market seems to be stabilizing around three models though....CL-415 (and the future CL-515), Bombardier Dash 8-Q400, and Air Tractor 802's

Two of the 3 designs are Canadian and built here so that's a pretty good track record. Especially when you see them in use in other countries around the world.

 

[YZT580]

Some areas are excellent for cycle times and scooper lakes...Ontario, MB, SK come to mind. Parts of the Okanogan as well.

Alberta and northern BC...not so much. Some lakes especially in the NE AB but frankly I don't get to see the CL-215's or AT-802U's much due to lack of scooper capable lakes. There's some big water bodies by surface area but many are more like shallow duck ponds than true deep lakes which can cause issues.

I know Ontario has the Twin Otter scooper units but have never seen them in action to compare against the AT-802U. CL-415 vs. CL-215 need a medium sized lake and while I know they can land on rivers (saw one land in Thailand in middle of a river in Bangkok) it's a question of straightness, depth, and banks to allow safe approach.

The other challage is the size of plane vs. topography....I love the sights but hate the experience of flying over the mountain ridges and dealing the the air thermal changes on each side. Larger aircraft tend to handle it better than the smaller tankers like the AT-802's but if conditions are good the little guys can nip into the valley where the big units like the Electra L-180's can not.

Point I'm trying to make is I don't know if there is a perfect airframe for use across Canada. There are some very good planes for X situation and there are better planes for Y. The market seems to be stabilizing around three models though....CL-415 (and the future CL-515), Bombardier Dash 8-Q400, and Air Tractor 802's

Two of the 3 designs are Canadian and built here so that's a pretty good track record. Especially when you see them in use in other countries around the world.

And some can use either runway or water area for reloads so advantage to the CL515. And its design makes it suitable for less than perfect surfaces. Problem is it is two to three years from delivery and the fires are burning now. The C130 and the Transals could bridge that gap

 

[lenaitch]

I know Ontario has the Twin Otter scooper units but have never seen them in action to compare against the AT-802U. CL-415 vs. CL-215 need a medium sized lake and while I know they can land on rivers (saw one land in Thailand in middle of a river in Bangkok) it's a question of straightness, depth, and banks to allow safe approach.

Only six Twin Otters now (plus 5 Turbo Beavers but I don't think any do suppression anymore). I'm the opposite; I've not seen an Air Tractor in action. According to the Internet, the Twin Otter delivers 450g and the AT (Fire Boss) 670. The advantage to the MNR is the TO has more versatility for other Ministry roles, whereas the AT is much more limited.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Meanwhile, in BC:

B.C. Forest Practices Board says forestry changes could reduce wildfire risk​

British Columbia’s Forest Practices Board says a two-year investigation has found “outdated rules and unclear responsibility” are stopping forestry from becoming a wildfire prevention tool.

The board — an independent body that audits B.C. forest practices — says it examined forestry operations between 2019 and 2022 in areas where communities and forests meet, including the Sea to Sky, Cariboo-Chilcotin and Peace districts.

It says fire hazard assessments are a “cornerstone of wildfire risk reduction,” and while the industry assessments met 70 per cent of the requirements, fewer than one-quarter were completed on time.

The board says municipalities are excluded from the definition of legal interface, a term used for fires burning close to homes, which means logging debris can remain for up to 30 months, even in high-risk areas.

The report makes five recommendations to the province that it says would help support “faster fuel cleanup, better co-ordination and more consistent protection for people and communities throughout B.C.”

The suggestions include encouraging forest operators to actively reduce fire risk, improve co-ordination between government and industry, update legal definitions to add municipalities in the interface, modernize hazard assessment guidelines and incentivize faster logging cleanup.

B.C. Forest Practices Board says forestry changes could reduce wildfire risk

B.C.'s Forest Practices Board says an investigation has found outdated rules are stopping forestry from becoming a wildfire prevention tool.

vancouver.citynews.ca

 

[foresterab]

Meanwhile, in BC:

B.C. Forest Practices Board says forestry changes could reduce wildfire risk​

British Columbia’s Forest Practices Board says a two-year investigation has found “outdated rules and unclear responsibility” are stopping forestry from becoming a wildfire prevention tool.

The board — an independent body that audits B.C. forest practices — says it examined forestry operations between 2019 and 2022 in areas where communities and forests meet, including the Sea to Sky, Cariboo-Chilcotin and Peace districts.

It says fire hazard assessments are a “cornerstone of wildfire risk reduction,” and while the industry assessments met 70 per cent of the requirements, fewer than one-quarter were completed on time.

The board says municipalities are excluded from the definition of legal interface, a term used for fires burning close to homes, which means logging debris can remain for up to 30 months, even in high-risk areas.

The report makes five recommendations to the province that it says would help support “faster fuel cleanup, better co-ordination and more consistent protection for people and communities throughout B.C.”

The suggestions include encouraging forest operators to actively reduce fire risk, improve co-ordination between government and industry, update legal definitions to add municipalities in the interface, modernize hazard assessment guidelines and incentivize faster logging cleanup.

B.C. Forest Practices Board says forestry changes could reduce wildfire risk

B.C.'s Forest Practices Board says an investigation has found outdated rules are stopping forestry from becoming a wildfire prevention tool.

vancouver.citynews.ca

For cross comparison in Alberta..

Special rules for any logging on crown land within 10km of a community. And disposal for all blocks normally required to be done within 12 months (1 year following) year of logging.

I believe the article cited a 2km interface zone (but I know it's an odd shape by community and threat vector and not that clean) and 30 months allowed in BC.

On the other hand I think BC is further ahead on some secondary use policy to allow material to be used from slash piles. Also a much different regulatory and inspection regime than Alberta for better or worse.

 

[foresterab]

And some can use either runway or water area for reloads so advantage to the CL515. And its design makes it suitable for less than perfect surfaces. Problem is it is two to three years from delivery and the fires are burning now. The C130 and the Transals could bridge that gap

Correct...all the amphibious units in Canada can also be reloaded at tanker bases. Depends on if you want retardant or water on the fire...cycle time...and volumes. Generally the larger ground based planes carry more water per trip so there is some bonus there (at least the Electra's do).

For comparision
L-188 Electra - 3,000 US Gal. capacity - usually a single plane "group"
Dash8-Q400 - 2650 US Gal. capacity - note this is a faster plane which helps offset capacity. Single plane "group"
CL-515 - 1621 US Gal. capacity - usually grouped up in pairs or more
AT-802 - 800 US Gal. capacity - usually grouped up in pairs or more

American ANG C-130 with MAFF's unit installed - 2700 US Gal. Capacity.

We're not going to the super tankers you see in the USA - 737's, Dash 10's, MD-80's due to the plane weight loaded. You're now talking more like the use of CFB Cold Lake or NORAD B-52 bases to handle things. Similar story with the Russian IL-76's.

Not sure if the RCAF wants to start converting Air Tanker strips and bases to Fighter strips standards but it'd sure pad the NATO bill fast if you did.

 

[RangerRay]

Correct...all the amphibious units in Canada can also be reloaded at tanker bases. Depends on if you want retardant or water on the fire...cycle time...and volumes. Generally the larger ground based planes carry more water per trip so there is some bonus there (at least the Electra's do).

For comparision
L-188 Electra - 3,000 US Gal. capacity - usually a single plane "group"
Dash8-Q400 - 2650 US Gal. capacity - note this is a faster plane which helps offset capacity. Single plane "group"
CL-515 - 1621 US Gal. capacity - usually grouped up in pairs or more
AT-802 - 800 US Gal. capacity - usually grouped up in pairs or more

American ANG C-130 with MAFF's unit installed - 2700 US Gal. Capacity.

We're not going to the super tankers you see in the USA - 737's, Dash 10's, MD-80's due to the plane weight loaded. You're now talking more like the use of CFB Cold Lake or NORAD B-52 bases to handle things. Similar story with the Russian IL-76's.

Not sure if the RCAF wants to start converting Air Tanker strips and bases to Fighter strips standards but it'd sure pad the NATO bill fast if you did.

And according to Conair’s website, the Avro RJ85 AT has a capacity of 3000 US Gal.

Avro RJ85 AT

conair.ca

 

[Nvlgzr]

And according to Conair’s website, the Avro RJ85 AT has a capacity of 3000 US Gal.

Avro RJ85 AT

conair.ca

I’m sure there are plenty of these available for conversion. Conair would do well to coax some of the prairie provinces into group buys.

 

[MrWhyt]

All I can think of is doing something like the following:

1) purchase C17's from European users as they transition to Airbus 400M's? Or Canada does the opposite but the end goal would be to increase the number of airframes.

A400s are generally replacing C-130s not C-17s

 

[foresterab]

I’m sure there are plenty of these available for conversion. Conair would do well to coax some of the prairie provinces into group buys.

They are out there. Both RJ85's and BA-146....same plane but different engines and both have been converted to tankers.

But again you're talking a 1990-2001 airframe which is already 25 years out of date and no longer manufactured. The only reason they're viewed as "new" is that they're replacing the older Convair 240/340/540 series that have been recently retired. Saskatchewan up until recently had a Convair 240 tanker that used to be a VIP transport under the Eisenhaueser administration (replaced by Dash8-Q400).

The only reason the older L-188 Electra's are still flying is that the company replaced almost every part on every wing with brand new custom made parts. The only reason they're viewed as "new" is that they're replacing the older Convair 240/340/540 series that have been recently retired.

CL-215's are old now. And wore out unless major overhaul/rebuilds done. But that's a 1966-1987 airframe.
CL-415's were built 1993-2015. And are starting to get replaced via the orders for the new CL-515

Conair has the contract for the Bombardiar Dash 8-Q400's, AT-802's, and AT-802U's in Alberta and provides the pilots/support via contract for the Saskatchewan new Dash-8 Q400.planes. Manitoba only runs CL-415's but not sure what the pilot/support situation is. Conair also has a long history of working with via aircraft/support for Securitie Civile in France: Sécurité Civile - Wikipedia which is where the Dash-8 conversion was developed and first used.

AirSpray also provides tankers to mulitiple western Canadian provinces but a more limited fleet than Conair.

The big message here is the parts and support services are getting harder and harder to source. Rules are stricter of part sourcing, the older miliary boneyards are no longer acceptable sources to raid, and many airframes have been used hard for too many years and now need a full structural rebuild or replacement. All of which is moving to more and more modern frames instead of cheap, limited part source, historical frames.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Whoops! Well it happens, but talk about unfortunate luck and an even more unfortunate location

Wildfire sparked by RCMP police trailer
'Tremendously unfortunate'; Mounties accidentally ignited blaze burning out of control north of Lytton - Kamloops News

 

[daftandbarmy]

They are out there. Both RJ85's and BA-146....same plane but different engines and both have been converted to tankers.

But again you're talking a 1990-2001 airframe which is already 25 years out of date and no longer manufactured. The only reason they're viewed as "new" is that they're replacing the older Convair 240/340/540 series that have been recently retired. Saskatchewan up until recently had a Convair 240 tanker that used to be a VIP transport under the Eisenhaueser administration (replaced by Dash8-Q400).

The only reason the older L-188 Electra's are still flying is that the company replaced almost every part on every wing with brand new custom made parts. The only reason they're viewed as "new" is that they're replacing the older Convair 240/340/540 series that have been recently retired.

CL-215's are old now. And wore out unless major overhaul/rebuilds done. But that's a 1966-1987 airframe.
CL-415's were built 1993-2015. And are starting to get replaced via the orders for the new CL-515

Conair has the contract for the Bombardiar Dash 8-Q400's, AT-802's, and AT-802U's in Alberta and provides the pilots/support via contract for the Saskatchewan new Dash-8 Q400.planes. Manitoba only runs CL-415's but not sure what the pilot/support situation is. Conair also has a long history of working with via aircraft/support for Securitie Civile in France: Sécurité Civile - Wikipedia which is where the Dash-8 conversion was developed and first used.

AirSpray also provides tankers to mulitiple western Canadian provinces but a more limited fleet than Conair.

The big message here is the parts and support services are getting harder and harder to source. Rules are stricter of part sourcing, the older miliary boneyards are no longer acceptable sources to raid, and many airframes have been used hard for too many years and now need a full structural rebuild or replacement. All of which is moving to more and more modern frames instead of cheap, limited part source, historical frames.

Tangentially, I was talking to a senior person in the Forest Regulatory world about buying more water bombers to deal with climate change issues.

He said 'It's too late for that. We have to figure out how to grow our forests differently.'

 

[Cloud Cover]

Tangentially, I was talking to a senior person in the Forest Regulatory world about buying more water bombers to deal with climate change issues.

He said 'It's too late for that. We have to figure out how to grow our forests differently.'

Do trees have elbows?

 

[Good2Golf]

Laughs in CF18 FORTRAN.

FTFY

 

[Cloud Cover]

FTFY

I C what you did there.

 

[foresterab]

Tangentially, I was talking to a senior person in the Forest Regulatory world about buying more water bombers to deal with climate change issues.

He said 'It's too late for that. We have to figure out how to grow our forests differently.'

Bombers don't work when you have crown fires rolling. Only on initial starts are they very effective or maybe the rear/flank areas.

But the fuels driving the fire are a very complex situation from both management, long growth cycles and politics (i.e. what do you let burn if you can?).

Logging can assist but bad logging can increase danger...such fun times to plan up.