Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly

[OldSolduer]

I sense outrage here. Any idea of the physical size of the kid? Was he cuffed in front or rear cuffed?

It's a f**king kid for God's sake???
And given his employment background and experience. Seriously beaucoup problems here.

 

[lenaitch]

We don't get all the details in the media item but we are led to assume the interaction met the threshold for a use-of-force in the first place.

(h) uses force on another person, including through the use of a horse or a dog, that results in an injury requiring the services of a physician, nurse or paramedic and the member is aware that the injury required such services before the member goes off-duty.

The fact that something embarrassed the Service isn't a criteria.

He owned up to it. We all have limits. I'm not sure everything needs to be a hangin' offence; particularly if there is no similar employment history. Progressive discipline is a thing.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Weird statement to make by police.

Woman fatally stabbed while unloading groceries in 'unprovoked' attack: Toronto police

A woman in her 70s was fatally stabbed while unloading groceries into her car in North York on Thursday in what police say was an "unprovoked" attack.

Sinclair told reporters that police believe there is no ongoing threat to the public. When asked how that's possible considering no suspect has been located, he said police are taking the situation seriously.

 

[brihard]

Weird statement to make by police.

Woman fatally stabbed while unloading groceries in 'unprovoked' attack: Toronto police

Awkward wording for sure. They probably mean it in the sense of there’s not an active threat.

Reminds me of the random stabbing of an elderly person also in the GTA within the past couple months… I’m guessing, but I won’t be surprised if this turns out to be another one of the emerging trend of nihilistic violent extremism files. Potentially a youth.

 

[Jarnhamar]

but we are led to assume the interaction met the threshold for a use-of-force in the first place.

I don't think losing your temper because someone is calling you names meets a UoF threshold to slam them into the ground face first.

He owned up to it.

Kinda?

Though Khan made notes in his duty book, he failed to file a use-of-force report. In fact, Ottawa police didn’t know about the assault until CHEO’s security staff reported it a month later.

He got caught.

 

[Jarnhamar]

They probably mean it in the sense of there’s not an active threat.

Probably yeah. I would think someone willing and capable of randonly stabbing a defenseless stranger to death would be an active threat though.

 

[lenaitch]

I don't think losing your temper because someone is calling you names meets a UoF threshold to slam them into the ground face first.

But what we don't know (or I don't recall reading) whether the victim sustained:

an injury requiring the services of a physician, nurse or paramedic

 

[Jarnhamar]

But what we don't know (or I don't recall reading) whether the victim sustained:

It sounds like the victim was uninjured.

This old article gives a better recounting what happened. Kid has tourettes syndrome and was sitting in a chair (handcuffed) and not presenting a physical threat to anyone when the cop attacked him.

I was thinking on what you said about being accountable. I agree that yes at least once caught he did the right thing and just pled guilty and didn't play the silent game.

 

[CBH99]

Weird statement to make by police.

Woman fatally stabbed while unloading groceries in 'unprovoked' attack: Toronto police

Who walks up to a senior citizen unloading groceries & just stabs them to death for no reason? Special place in hell for people like that...

That was most likely someone's grandma RIP

 

[lenaitch]

It sounds like the victim was uninjured.

This old article gives a better recounting what happened. Kid has tourettes syndrome and was sitting in a chair (handcuffed) and not presenting a physical threat to anyone when the cop attacked him.

I was thinking on what you said about being accountable. I agree that yes at least once caught he did the right thing and just pled guilty and didn't play the silent game.

And that was my point. I'm not excusing his actions, but if the incident didn't meet the threshold for a Use-of-Force report, then he can't be faulted for not reporting it (absent any internal OPS policy).

 

[dapaterson]

And that was my point. I'm not excusing his actions, but if the incident didn't meet the threshold for a Use-of-Force report, then he can't be faulted for not reporting it (absent any internal OPS policy).

If grabbing someone and throwing them to the ground is not a use of force...

 

[Jarnhamar]

but if the incident didn't meet the threshold for a Use-of-Force report, then he can't be faulted for not reporting it (absent any internal OPS policy).

The articles uses the wording "failed to file a use-of-force report".

That could mean he should have reported it but didn't, or like you mention, it could just mean he failed as in didn't think he needed to. Maybe he figured there wasn't a requirement to since it was straight up assault and theres no box to check for that.

Does the OPS need to file a use of force report if they place handcuffs on someone or use hard physical control?

 

[brihard]

Probably yeah. I would think someone willing and capable of randonly stabbing a defenseless stranger to death would be an active threat though.

Right but if the video had the appearance of he was trying to escape, then we wouldn’t call it an active threat in the sense of someone looking to rack up a body count who needs to be stopped by active shooter protocols. Generally speaking a random attack like this ends up in identification and capture quite quickly, or at least enough pressure that they rapidly go to ground.

From the area this happened in I suspect there’s a massive video canvas underway. Probably a lot of video captured the suspect’s movements.

 

[lenaitch]

If grabbing someone and throwing them to the ground is not a use of force...

Yes it is but, as I quoted above, it apparently did not meet the threshold as required by the Regulations. The very definition of 'arrest' is to 'take or get control' of a person. That inherently involves the 'laying on of hands; likely the application of handcuffs. Should every such interaction require a UofF report?

 

[Remius]

Who walks up to a senior citizen unloading groceries & just stabs them to death for no reason? Special place in hell for people like that...

That was most likely someone's grandma RIP

Someone that could benefit from an accelerated departure? Beneficiaries for example.

 

[Dana381]

Who walks up to a senior citizen unloading groceries & just stabs them to death for no reason? Special place in hell for people like that...

That was most likely someone's grandma RIP

Senior citizens are not always innocent. Maybe she pissed off the wrong person.

The rise of the geriatric criminal

Aging populations and poverty appear to be contributing to a surge in crime by the elderly

www.cbsnews.com

Inside grandma Joanne Segovia’s ‘Breaking Bad’-style double life of ‘drug-dealing,’ hoodwinking her police union co-workers

“They didn’t need any money,” said a stunned relative of accused drug dealer Joanne Segovia — a granny who worked for the police union — and her husband. “They both had made really good money and d…

nypost.com

Cocaine-dealing YK grandma: drugs have ‘cost me so much’

At a hearing, 52-year-old Serenus Bryan said her addiction to drugs – and a series of related convictions – had profoundly damaged her life and family.

cabinradio.ca

 

[Jarnhamar]

If grabbing someone and throwing them to the ground is not a use of force...

I did a bit of reading of Ontario Regulation 926 and O. Reg. 532/22. It appears that a UoF report isn't required if there are no injuries, basically.
RCMP, OPP, and OPS. all follow that policy.

However, unless I'm mistaken, the UoF report must also be filed when physical force is used that could reasonably be expected to cause injury, even if no injury is reported.

Throwing a handcuffed youth to the floor, even without injury, exceeds soft physical control and would fall under hard physical control, or even assaultive behavior by the officer. If the kid landed wrong he could have broke his neck.

Additionally the youth is in a mental health crisis and has a disability which should raise the threshold for appropriate and proportional use of force.

In this case I think a UoF report would be mandatory because:

-serious physical force was used
-it could reasonably be expected to cause injury
-the subject was handcuffed and not actively threatening anyone
-the subject was a youth*
-the subject was in a mental health crisis and has a disability

*filing a UoF report isn't required simply due to someone being a youth however it's highly recommended by the Ontario Human Rights Commission and many police forces adopt it as a best practice.

 

[dapaterson]

I did a bit of reading of Ontario Regulation 926 and O. Reg. 532/22. It appears that a UoF report isn't required if there are no injuries, basically.
RCMP, OPP, and OPS. all follow that policy.

However, unless I'm mistaken, the UoF report must also be filed when physical force is used that could reasonably be expected to cause injury, even if no injury is reported.

Throwing a handcuffed youth to the floor, even without injury, exceeds soft physical control and would fall under hard physical control, or even assaultive behavior by the officer. If the kid landed wrong he could have broke his neck.

Additionally the youth is in a mental health crisis and has a disability which should raise the threshold for appropriate and proportional use of force.

In this case I think a UoF report would be mandatory because:

-serious physical force was used
-it could reasonably be expected to cause injury
-the subject was handcuffed and not actively threatening anyone
-the subject was a youth*
-the subject was in a mental health crisis and has a disability

*filing a UoF report isn't required simply due to someone being a youth however it's highly recommended by the Ontario Human Rights Commission and many police forces adopt it as a best practice.

Thanks for the detailed research and read-in.

 

[CBH99]

Senior citizens are not always innocent. Maybe she pissed off the wrong person.

The rise of the geriatric criminal

Aging populations and poverty appear to be contributing to a surge in crime by the elderly

www.cbsnews.com

Inside grandma Joanne Segovia’s ‘Breaking Bad’-style double life of ‘drug-dealing,’ hoodwinking her police union co-workers

“They didn’t need any money,” said a stunned relative of accused drug dealer Joanne Segovia — a granny who worked for the police union — and her husband. “They both had made really good money and d…

nypost.com

Cocaine-dealing YK grandma: drugs have ‘cost me so much’

At a hearing, 52-year-old Serenus Bryan said her addiction to drugs – and a series of related convictions – had profoundly damaged her life and family.

cabinradio.ca

I have no doubt that as the population ages, there will be more & more 'senior criminals'...

Until there is some sort of information that suggests this lady was secretly a criminal or was hanging with the criminal element, I'm going to assume the guy who stabbed her while she was unloading groceries & ran off is just a special kind of lowly shitbag.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Who walks up to a senior citizen unloading groceries & just stabs them to death for no reason? Special place in hell for people like that...

That was most likely someone's grandma RIP

Gang initiation?