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Replacing the Subs

Singapore already has agreements with Canada in place since Harpers time, for RAMPs and other logistical tasks (casualty extraction/care etc...). Not a bad choice, assuming those agreements haven't expired.


I wouldn't be surprised if there was a summer season proper arctic port at this point. We'll see where it ends up.


I'm seeing the "opinions" come out saying the German choice is the best choice now that its a two horse race. I'm legit excited about this now that its real.
If the Poles pick the German choice before us, I cannot see how our timelines can be met. They might move heaven and earth for the first sub, but the next 11yr would be staggered so far down the line we'll be at where we currently are today, with 1 deployable sub.
 
I'm seeing the "opinions" come out saying the German choice is the best choice now that its a two horse race. I'm legit excited about this now that its real.
It certainly seems like the Germans have an advantage with a more advanced boat that is more NATO standard compliant out of the box however, the two proposed delivery schedules between the German and Korean offerings really do not paint the Germans in a positive light.

TKMS is claiming they can have the first submarine in Canadian hands in 2034, with the second following in 2036 and the third in 2037.

Hyundai is claiming they can have the first submarine in Canadian hands in 2032, three additional boats by 2035 (to replace the entire Victoria class by 2035) and ultimately deliver the entire 12 boat order by 2043.

Is the German design so much more advanced that we would be willing to potentially throw ourselves into a complex production logjam with Germany and Norway, and have to operate the Victoria class for longer than the Korean bid/risk having no submarines? Perhaps the Korean timeline is not realistic, but I have reservations about getting involved with the juggling act that the Germans are undertaking right now. The Korean timeline seems very quick, and something no other party can match. If we want ships without screwing around, the Korean option looks appealing.
 
It certainly seems like the Germans have an advantage with a more advanced boat that is more NATO standard compliant out of the box however, the two proposed delivery schedules between the German and Korean offerings really do not paint the Germans in a positive light.

TKMS is claiming they can have the first submarine in Canadian hands in 2034, with the second following in 2036 and the third in 2037.

Hyundai is claiming they can have the first submarine in Canadian hands in 2032, three additional boats by 2035 (to replace the entire Victoria class by 2035) and ultimately deliver the entire 12 boat order by 2043.

Is the German design so much more advanced that we would be willing to potentially throw ourselves into a complex production logjam with Germany and Norway, and have to operate the Victoria class for longer than the Korean bid/risk having no submarines? Perhaps the Korean timeline is not realistic, but I have reservations about getting involved with the juggling act that the Germans are undertaking right now.
The SK need this contract, Germany wants it. SK will do what it takes to make us a happy customer. Germany will say "Yes, but this is how we do things and please follow along".

From public numbers the SK torpedo is better than the US Mk 48, however anyone that knows the real status and comparison of both can't and should not say anything.


Cost of the SK torpedo and VLS weapon systems is both a factor and a opportunity for Canada. If both Canada and India select the KSS, then the cost per unit will go down. Canada hopefully would onshore some of the component manufacturing of both systems, giving SK, Canada and other potentiel users redundant supply chains.

The 212CD is planned to use a new German torpedo which is in development. It's not clear if the 212CD can use both the current service torpedo and the CHWT?

Norway and Germany to develop new torpedo for submarines - Militarnyi
 
on the topic of bases, is there enough space to expand the Victoria airport water aerodrome docks to put subs there? or perhaps a new facility at Comox?
 
Is the German boat really that much more advanced in technology,weapons, sensors etc., than the Korean boat??
 
There's lots of moving pieces in regards to infrastructure or lack there of in Halifax and Esquimalt. I'll speak mostly to Halifax but needless to say space is limited in Esquimalt with any potential expansion would be fought tooth and nail by the locals if it spoiled their view.:cool:

The breakdown of what we're getting or think we're talked about here continuously but realistically what do we really know? We have to make some assumptions. So fair to say we're getting a JSS for each coast. In Halifax the JSS will probably be berthed at NB, specifically built for JSS. As it stands Asterix will be returned to federal fleet and the extra two JSS is just a pie in the sky. If we did keep Asterix or JSS considering their size they probably be berthed at a civilian terminal and possibly with civilian workers. I know extra JSS would be beneficial, I just can't see it given our numbers of personnel or funding levels.

The Halifax Class we got and whatever RCD we build. Lets assume 15 ships and we won't go about 12 operational for many years. The RCD are much larger than the Halifax class so that's a consideration, shore power and shore connections may need to be updated. In fact at least in Halifax all the infrastructure on the existing jetties need to be refreshed, including new cranes. Our lift right now can't take an AOPV, JSS or RCD. Even the Halifax class can only go up on the lift at certain times of the month. We've always had nesting in Halifax and Esquimalt so its not a new concept however a pain in the ass doing cold moves.

Possibly 12 submarines divided 2 coasts , so say 6 a coast. I honestly can't see the GOC having a separate base. Can 6 subs fit at NC, the traditional location of sub squadron where the subs are based now?, they could and talking to actual submariners they probably will be be based there.

4 AOPV . 2 to the new jetty down by MARLANT and 2 next door at the old tanker jetty.

New corvettes no one knows how many we're getting. Significantly doubt we'll be getting 12, 6 or 8 perhaps. Where do we shoehorn those. Have we considered space to store paid off ships? We generally don't send the ships to the breakers right away. As well we would need space for visiting warships and possibly a offshore dive ship for submarine support, critical infrastructure inspection or support ship. Wow that's a lot of ships we may potentially need to berth. Imagine if we had the Mistrial.

So if I was to make a guess., we'll see NAD and possibly over at the CCG base developed and dredged to support the corvettes and whatever else we decided to base there along with the DND CCG assets.

I think we'll see infrastructure renewal with possibly the sub shed being enlarged to accommodate any new submarines. and perhaps a reconfiguration of the jetties, possibly with some finger jetties to make more room. Can't see anything being built at Shearwater although probably a good site for a submarine rescue ship to be based.
 
I would propose Souda Bay and Singapore.

Souda Bay has the USNAS we could could tie into and Singapore has the British Defence Singapore Support Unit, or Task Force 73 with the US. We just need some square footage from these fine allies.

I would station a frigate/destroyer from these stations rotating crews out.
Yokosuka in Japan is home to the US 7th Fleet as well as the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force submarine command. It's closer to North Korea and Taiwan (and Canada) than Singapore. It's somewhat protected being on the East coast of Japan (rather than facing China/North Korea) and also possibly somewhat politically protected in a limited conflict being adjacent to Tokyo and hosting the US 7th Fleet.

Similarly Faslane in Scotland is much more logical for an Atlantic forward base as it's astride the GIUK gap where we'd be likely to operate and is co-located with the RN's submarine fleet who we'd likely be working more closely with than any other European navies.
 
There's lots of moving pieces in regards to infrastructure or lack there of in Halifax and Esquimalt. I'll speak mostly to Halifax but needless to say space is limited in Esquimalt with any potential expansion would be fought tooth and nail by the locals if it spoiled their view.:cool:

The breakdown of what we're getting or think we're talked about here continuously but realistically what do we really know? We have to make some assumptions. So fair to say we're getting a JSS for each coast. In Halifax the JSS will probably be berthed at NB, specifically built for JSS. As it stands Asterix will be returned to federal fleet and the extra two JSS is just a pie in the sky. If we did keep Asterix or JSS considering their size they probably be berthed at a civilian terminal and possibly with civilian workers. I know extra JSS would be beneficial, I just can't see it given our numbers of personnel or funding levels.
Speaking only of the JSS, would it be possible or even legal given the differences in certification, for a JSS to be fitted for but not equipped with weapons and then crewed by a civilian crew in the same fashion as the Asterix is until such time as recruiting and training caught up?
 
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