Replacing the Subs

[Navy_Pete]

I don’t have alot of confidence in our politicians and bureaucrats to make the best apolitical decision.

It's a $100B decision that has strategic foreign relation impacts, of course it's a political decision.

Doesn't mean we won't get a good sub, as both met the actual requirements and were scrubbed against other really good subs. Probably ups and downs to either option, including contract terms, techonolgy exchanges and things like training etc.

I suspect the geopolitics favours the German/Norwegian option for subs, but who knows. SK is also offering a lot of really good army kit, so wouldn't be surprised if we start to jump on that for the Latvia mission in particular.

 

[FJAG]

Quick reminder:

The man leads a minority government.

If he keeps up going the way he's going then the Liberals are going to see something they haven't seen in a very, very long time - my vote.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

If he keeps up going the way he's going then the Liberals are going to see something they haven't seen in a very, very long time - my vote.

If they would reverse course on gun confiscation, the Liberals might run the table…

 

[PrairieFella]

The RCN has specifically asked about land attack and anti-ship missile capability within the RFI itself, and the general trend within the Navy as of late has been to invest in these 'excess capabilities'. See the plans to purchase and operate Tomahawk from the River class in the future. VLS is an effective way of having this capability integrated while not taking up valuable space within the torpedo magazine that horizontally launched systems need. VLS is a potentially very valuable bit of futureproofing and a good deal of additional lethality.

Saying it is a system they have "no requirement for, doesn't need and doesn't want" is an assumption that I personally wouldn't be comfortable making as an outsider looking in.

We need them for our future nuclear deterrent anyways

 

[PrairieFella]

It's a $100B decision that has strategic foreign relation impacts, of course it's a political decision.

Doesn't mean we won't get a good sub, as both met the actual requirements and were scrubbed against other really good subs. Probably ups and downs to either option, including contract terms, techonolgy exchanges and things like training etc.

I suspect the geopolitics favours the German/Norwegian option for subs, but who knows. SK is also offering a lot of really good army kit, so wouldn't be surprised if we start to jump on that for the Latvia mission in particular.

I personally think itll be the other way around. Naval purchase in SK to reinforce our commitment to our allies in the Pacific and land kit from Europe since reasonably thats the only place we'll be using it outside Canada.

 

[FJAG]

If they would reverse course on gun confiscation, the Liberals might run the table…

Yup. I'm a gun control advocate but I think the Liberals programs have gone too far. It should concentrate on criminals and not make ordinary citizens into criminals. That said, the urban vote is just too strong and their feelings on the subject are the trump card on the subject. I don't think you'll see a reversal anytime soon.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

If they would reverse course on gun confiscation, the Liberals might run the table…

Why did you have to mention that?

Why did you have to mention that ?

Have you heard anything about gun control or this program from Carney since he became PM? I think he is letting that die on the vine quietly and not mention a word, keeping his fingers crossed that there won't be another mass event in Canada that force him to "resurrect" the topic.

Meanwhile, of course, owners are stuck with guns they cannot use, but at least, no one is coming to get them.

 

[Underway]

I don’t have alot of confidence in our politicians and bureaucrats to make the best apolitical decision.

Depending on how you define bureaucrats, some are quite good at their job and do their best for Canada. A lot of the procurement staff both military and civilian have a lot of knowlege. The fact that they narrowed down the submarine choice to two A List options is good. At this point you can't pick the "wrong" submarine.

You can still F-up the contract though. Lol

 

[Underway]

We need them for our future nuclear deterrent anyways

This guy gets it. Nuclear delivery methods through line.

I personally think itll be the other way around. Naval purchase in SK to reinforce our commitment to our allies in the Pacific and land kit from Europe since reasonably thats the only place we'll be using it outside Canada.

Really it can go either way if you were to follow this plan. Canada already has an existing relationship with the German navy with regards to sharing technology (JSS is a german design, Germany is using CMS 330 in their next Air Defence Ship, our submariners already train with Germans), but we also use German tanks in the Army.

If there is consideration of balancing things then I would agree, Korea gets the ships and Germany gets the tanks and army ordinance contracts. There is a very good chance of an increase in tank numbers and likely a purchase of about 100 RCH 155 turret systems from them. I wouldn't be surprised if Eurospike was also added to the list. Korea isn't even in the ball park for these contracts right now.

There is also the fact Canada may be able to access EU loans for military purchases with that new EU military loan program (interest free or somesuch not entirely sure how it works). So there could be a situation where money talks.

However my feel on this right now, is that the project is playing things properly and by the rules. They are letting the bids speak for themselves and the government, while having the final decision is not putting their fingers on the scale.

Looking forward to hearing more from TKMS. They have been very German about this whole thing so we don't have a lot of info on it or any Canadian partners. Korea's been working hard to get their bid set up, and the Germans have a way to go right now. Korea has the early lead. Germany has work to do to catch up.

 

[suffolkowner]

Yup. I'm a gun control advocate but I think the Liberals programs have gone too far. It should concentrate on criminals and not make ordinary citizens into criminals. That said, the urban vote is just too strong and their feelings on the subject are the trump card on the subject. I don't think you'll see a reversal anytime soon.

best i am hoping for on that is the status quo. The firearm remains unusable but unconfiscated. More complicated for registered firearms I think especially when the inevitable death of owner comes about

 

[Czech_pivo]

This guy gets it. Nuclear delivery methods through line.


Really it can go either way if you were to follow this plan. Canada already has an existing relationship with the German navy with regards to sharing technology (JSS is a german design, Germany is using CMS 330 in their next Air Defence Ship, our submariners already train with Germans), but we also use German tanks in the Army.

If there is consideration of balancing things then I would agree, Korea gets the ships and Germany gets the tanks and army ordinance contracts. There is a very good chance of an increase in tank numbers and likely a purchase of about 100 RCH 155 turret systems from them. I wouldn't be surprised if Eurospike was also added to the list. Korea isn't even in the ball park for these contracts right now.

There is also the fact Canada may be able to access EU loans for military purchases with that new EU military loan program (interest free or somesuch not entirely sure how it works). So there could be a situation where money talks.

However my feel on this right now, is that the project is playing things properly and by the rules. They are letting the bids speak for themselves and the government, while having the final decision is not putting their fingers on the scale.

Looking forward to hearing more from TKMS. They have been very German about this whole thing so we don't have a lot of info on it or any Canadian partners. Korea's been working hard to get their bid set up, and the Germans have a way to go right now. Korea has the early lead. Germany has work to do to catch up.

This is the stuff that makes me very cautious to go with the Germans.

German submarines from TKMS for Canada and India?

Following the rejection from Australia, Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) could make a move in Canada and India - with up to 18 submarines.

militaeraktuell.at

If we went with them, along with Poland, there were be serious concerns with timelines. If the Indians joined the queue with us, I do not see how they could deliver 4 sets of timelines - us, the Germans, the Norwegians and the Indians. If Poland joined as well, game over.

This discussion should be looked at to include the potential ‘picking up of the slack’ by adding more subs earlier into the mix vs later in terms of Halifax’s retiring or self-retiring against the very very long time line of getting 15 Rivers into the water. Getting 4 KSS’s to us by say 2035-37, at the time we will have 1 River maybe the second being trailed, can allow for some of the older Halifax’s to be put to rest.
Going with the Germans and having 1 sub by 2035 does not give us any runway at all. We may have large gaps in our capabilities to meet current ops tempo let alone adding to it.

Project-75 (India) submarine acquisition project - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Navy_Pete]

This guy gets it. Nuclear delivery methods through line.


Really it can go either way if you were to follow this plan. Canada already has an existing relationship with the German navy with regards to sharing technology (JSS is a german design, Germany is using CMS 330 in their next Air Defence Ship, our submariners already train with Germans), but we also use German tanks in the Army.

If there is consideration of balancing things then I would agree, Korea gets the ships and Germany gets the tanks and army ordinance contracts. There is a very good chance of an increase in tank numbers and likely a purchase of about 100 RCH 155 turret systems from them. I wouldn't be surprised if Eurospike was also added to the list. Korea isn't even in the ball park for these contracts right now.

There is also the fact Canada may be able to access EU loans for military purchases with that new EU military loan program (interest free or somesuch not entirely sure how it works). So there could be a situation where money talks.

However my feel on this right now, is that the project is playing things properly and by the rules. They are letting the bids speak for themselves and the government, while having the final decision is not putting their fingers on the scale.

Looking forward to hearing more from TKMS. They have been very German about this whole thing so we don't have a lot of info on it or any Canadian partners. Korea's been working hard to get their bid set up, and the Germans have a way to go right now. Korea has the early lead. Germany has work to do to catch up.

I think for the land procurement, the big advantage SK seems to have is their production lines are already full steam ahead, whereas most of Europe is playing catchup, so timeline wise they may be able to turn around delivery a lot faster for exports, where European domestic producers may be more focused on the host country requirements first. Interoperability is I think a bit overblown, as the parts that really need to be compatible is the comms and after that we always run orphaned kit anyway or "Canadianize" it so won't be much change to status quo.

However this all works out, seems pretty great that the GoC is actively pursuing new subs, heavy vehicles, and serious offensive and defensive weapon systems.

 

[PHughes]

As a Sea King TACCO (heh), the usual method of gaining contact in the simulator was either a missile plume or a torpedo bearing.

Either way, it always resulted in a dead submarine, 100% of the time (either we were that good or…hey! Wait a second…)

Might end up being a different ending these days

 

[Czech_pivo]

Might end up being a different ending these days

Chaff on helo’s?

 

[Genetk44]

Depending on how you define bureaucrats, some are quite good at their job and do their best for Canada. A lot of the procurement staff both military and civilian have a lot of knowlege. The fact that they narrowed down the submarine choice to two A List options is good. At this point you can't pick the "wrong" submarine.

You can still F-up the contract though. Lol

I agree we do have some very good bureaucrats and I’ve met them, including some very high up in the procurement area. I’m not saying everybody is bad, just that alot of bad choices have been made over the years so unfortunately my confidence level is rather pessemistic…especially once the politicians get thrown into the mix. As for a wrong sub, again I agree with you there is no “ wrong” sub at this point…..I just believe, perhaps wrongly, that the SK is the better choice for us now.

 

[Underway]

Might end up being a different ending these days

He's aware. He's forgotten more things about ASW than most experts know.

 

[Underway]

I agree we do have some very good bureaucrats and I’ve met them, including some very high up in the procurement area. I’m not saying everybody is bad, just that alot of bad choices have been made over the years so unfortunately my confidence level is rather pessemistic…especially once the politicians get thrown into the mix. As for a wrong sub, again I agree with you there is no “ wrong” sub at this point…..I just believe, perhaps wrongly, that the SK is the better choice for us now.

From a build perspective I think SK is the better choice as well. I think there is also more opportunity to work with SK to consistantly make it more stealthy with a higher indiscretion rate over time. There is some room to grow there. Canadian underwater tech and access to NATO submarine knowlege I think gives us a greater opportunity to make the KSS III CAN our own submarine over time.

But damn, you know that if you have that particular German sub on station no one is going to ever ever find it if it doesn't want to be found. That thing is invisible like nothing else in the world underwater. Its the build schedule, future proofing (read size) and range that I have questions about.

I have no clue about sensors, as they are extremely important. Its things like them which we will never know about that could make or break a bid. Are SK sonars and German ones roughly equivalent?

 

[Maxman1]

Why did you have to mention that?

Why did you have to mention that ?

Have you heard anything about gun control or this program from Carney since he became PM? I think he is letting that die on the vine quietly and not mention a word, keeping his fingers crossed that there won't be another mass event in Canada that force him to "resurrect" the topic.

Meanwhile, of course, owners are stuck with guns they cannot use, but at least, no one is coming to get them.

No, he is going full steam ahead, and has a gun control lobbyist as an MP.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

He's aware. He's forgotten more things about ASW than most experts know.

I am, in actual fact, an expert on ASW. Nearly 2000hrs in a Sea King will do that…