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Replacing the Subs

Czech_pivo said:
Anyone able to post what’s behind the paywall?
Click to expand...
Ottawa is weighing contracting directly with the South Korean or German and Norwegian governments instead of manufacturers in its coming purchase of a fleet of submarines, the commander of Canada’s navy said.
The federal government recently announced it has narrowed its hunt for up to 12 submarines down to two suppliers: South Korea’s Hanwha or a German-Norwegian project with manufacturer ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) in Germany.
Vice-Admiral Angus Topshee, commander of the Royal Canadian Navy, said Ottawa is exploring the benefits that could come from purchasing the subs through a “strategic partnership” with foreign governments.
In an interview, he pointed to Norway’s recent decision to buy frigates from Britain’s BAE Systems that is being undertaken through a top-level partnership between London and Oslo.
The navy commander likened such a partnership to AUKUS, the Australian-British-American pact to share nuclear propulsion technology with Australia.
Canada’s purchase of as many as a dozen new submarines will give this country a capability it doesn’t have right now with four subs, most of which are not operational. And the procurement has the prospect to exceed Ottawa’s purchase of new F-35 fighter jets, with some analysts projecting the total acquisition cost over the boats’ life cycle could hit $120-billion for 12 subs.
Vice-Adm. Topshee said a direct government-to-government contract in which the home country of the defence contractor is responsible for delivering submarines, rather than the company itself, could yield more benefits for Canada.
“What if we want to insist on German and Norwegian investment in a certain Canadian technology? What if there’s some sort of LNG deal as part of this?” he said, referring to Canadian exports of liquefied natural gas.
The commander said these types of decisions go beyond the remit of defence contractors.
“And that’s why I think we’re probably more inclined toward a government-to-government arrangement, because the type of strategic partnership we’re looking to do is going to be more between governments, enabled by the acquisition of a submarine.”
Vice-Adm. Topshee said the governments of Norway and Germany, or South Korea, may be able to offer more favourable terms in a sub purchase contract than the underlying manufacturers. “The honest truth is, we may be looking for concessions or arrangements with Germany and Norway or South Korea that TKMS and Hanwha can’t grant,” the commander said.
One benefit could be accelerated delivery of submarines. TKMS is building the 212 CD sub for the German and Norwegian navies and has a production schedule to give some early boats to those two countries.
“If we were to say, ‘Okay, well we want the third one off the line,’ and TKMS can’t give that to us,” then perhaps the German and Norwegian governments “could agree: ‘ We will delay the delivery of the submarine to us and give it to Canada first,’” Vice-Adm. Topshee said
He said direct negotiation with governments could also allow for more Canadian input not only in the submarines built for this country but also the submarines that the South Korean and German manufacturers are building for other clients, including their own navies.
Vice-Adm. Topshee said, for example, the first four submarines might be straight copies of what the manufacturers are already building for other clients, but Canada might be able to change the order for the next two batches of four submarines.
Maybe, “for submarines five through eight, we’d really like to see the incorporation of Canadian technology, not only into the design for our submarines but also in the ones for Norway and Germany, or South Korea,” he said. “Is that something those countries would be willing to consider?”
And for the final four submarines, Canada might be able to arrange a significant further “Canadianization of the boats where Canadian companies play an even greater role in the building of these subs,” the commander said.
“That is all stuff we’re looking at.”
The navy commander said the new sub purchase would lead to about 750 jobs on both the Pacific and Atlantic coasts for dedicated maintenance.
Hanwha says if under contract by 2026, it could deliver the first boat by 2032 and four subs by 2035. TKMS has said it’s “positioned to deliver the first submarine well in advance of 2035 and working closely with the Royal Canadian Navy for the remainder of the fleet.”
 
Am I to understand that roughly 1500 direct maintenance jobs across both coasts could be one of the results of us getting 12 subs?
That’s a sizeable amount of well paying jobs.
 
Nvlgzr said:
Ottawa is weighing contracting directly with the South Korean or German and Norwegian governments instead of manufacturers in its coming purchase of a fleet of submarines, the commander of Canada’s navy said.
The federal government recently announced it has narrowed its hunt for up to 12 submarines down to two suppliers: South Korea’s Hanwha or a German-Norwegian project with manufacturer ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) in Germany.
Vice-Admiral Angus Topshee, commander of the Royal Canadian Navy, said Ottawa is exploring the benefits that could come from purchasing the subs through a “strategic partnership” with foreign governments.
In an interview, he pointed to Norway’s recent decision to buy frigates from Britain’s BAE Systems that is being undertaken through a top-level partnership between London and Oslo.
The navy commander likened such a partnership to AUKUS, the Australian-British-American pact to share nuclear propulsion technology with Australia.
Canada’s purchase of as many as a dozen new submarines will give this country a capability it doesn’t have right now with four subs, most of which are not operational. And the procurement has the prospect to exceed Ottawa’s purchase of new F-35 fighter jets, with some analysts projecting the total acquisition cost over the boats’ life cycle could hit $120-billion for 12 subs.
Vice-Adm. Topshee said a direct government-to-government contract in which the home country of the defence contractor is responsible for delivering submarines, rather than the company itself, could yield more benefits for Canada.
“What if we want to insist on German and Norwegian investment in a certain Canadian technology? What if there’s some sort of LNG deal as part of this?” he said, referring to Canadian exports of liquefied natural gas.
The commander said these types of decisions go beyond the remit of defence contractors.
“And that’s why I think we’re probably more inclined toward a government-to-government arrangement, because the type of strategic partnership we’re looking to do is going to be more between governments, enabled by the acquisition of a submarine.”
Vice-Adm. Topshee said the governments of Norway and Germany, or South Korea, may be able to offer more favourable terms in a sub purchase contract than the underlying manufacturers. “The honest truth is, we may be looking for concessions or arrangements with Germany and Norway or South Korea that TKMS and Hanwha can’t grant,” the commander said.
One benefit could be accelerated delivery of submarines. TKMS is building the 212 CD sub for the German and Norwegian navies and has a production schedule to give some early boats to those two countries.
“If we were to say, ‘Okay, well we want the third one off the line,’ and TKMS can’t give that to us,” then perhaps the German and Norwegian governments “could agree: ‘ We will delay the delivery of the submarine to us and give it to Canada first,’” Vice-Adm. Topshee said
He said direct negotiation with governments could also allow for more Canadian input not only in the submarines built for this country but also the submarines that the South Korean and German manufacturers are building for other clients, including their own navies.
Vice-Adm. Topshee said, for example, the first four submarines might be straight copies of what the manufacturers are already building for other clients, but Canada might be able to change the order for the next two batches of four submarines.
Maybe, “for submarines five through eight, we’d really like to see the incorporation of Canadian technology, not only into the design for our submarines but also in the ones for Norway and Germany, or South Korea,” he said. “Is that something those countries would be willing to consider?”
And for the final four submarines, Canada might be able to arrange a significant further “Canadianization of the boats where Canadian companies play an even greater role in the building of these subs,” the commander said.
“That is all stuff we’re looking at.”
The navy commander said the new sub purchase would lead to about 750 jobs on both the Pacific and Atlantic coasts for dedicated maintenance.
Hanwha says if under contract by 2026, it could deliver the first boat by 2032 and four subs by 2035. TKMS has said it’s “positioned to deliver the first submarine well in advance of 2035 and working closely with the Royal Canadian Navy for the remainder of the fleet.”
Click to expand...
The government is going to screw this up.
 
suffolkowner said:
Is it really so bad if we go the German route?
Click to expand...
If we go the German route then I don’t see us doing much at all with the South Koreans now and well into the future.
Not saying that because of that we must go with South Korean sub, but going with the Germans basically means that we are hitching our wagon to the Europeans and the Americans and that’s it.
Looking at a country that is poorer than us but has a similar population, Poland has spread its money around the SK’s, the US, the Euros and themselves. Should they be a model we look to?
 
Interesting

"S1 Hudson and S1 Fenton received their certificate from Captain Ryu of the Korean Submarine Training Squad upon completing the International Submarine Education & Training Program in Korea. This training strengthens both our sailors’ expertise and collaboration with our international partners. Bravo Zulu to them both!"
548292905_801012668955794_7299366122410781634_n.jpg
549284147_801012875622440_7113688397449072238_n.jpg
548284480_801013098955751_4186432349473968143_n.jpg
549610760_801013538955707_2858733427002114055_n.jpg
 
Stoker said:
Interesting

"S1 Hudson and S1 Fenton received their certificate from Captain Ryu of the Korean Submarine Training Squad upon completing the International Submarine Education & Training Program in Korea. This training strengthens both our sailors’ expertise and collaboration with our international partners. Bravo Zulu to them both!"
View attachment 95839
View attachment 95836
View attachment 95837
View attachment 95838
Click to expand...
Smart thing to do, I suspect some others have been tagged to do a German course as well. The feedback from the candidates will be important.
 
Stoker said:
Interesting

"S1 Hudson and S1 Fenton received their certificate from Captain Ryu of the Korean Submarine Training Squad upon completing the International Submarine Education & Training Program in Korea. This training strengthens both our sailors’ expertise and collaboration with our international partners. Bravo Zulu to them both!"
View attachment 95839
View attachment 95836
View attachment 95837
View attachment 95838
Click to expand...
Can anyone pick out what other nations are present there? Are we the only NATO member present in the pic?
 
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