Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[FJAG]

I seem to recall that the CA also used to get called out to deal with prison riots, at least at the Kingston Pen in '71.

I can well imagine though that after a different event in Quebec in 1990 the CA would want to stay well away from LEO types of aid to the civil power activity. Just rife with the potential for bad PR regardless of actual outcomes.

Yeah. The Kingston pen was a rough one. That was the RCR that was brought in there. I went in with 2 RCHA a few years later to lock the place down when the guards went on a 24-hour strike. Supervisors did the direct handling of the prisoners while we provided perimeter and interior armed security.

The point after turning riot control over to the LEOs was that the military could still be called in on insurrection etc issues but on the complete understanding by everyone that it was not as riot control but as an armed, military force of last resort.

That was the situation at Oka. 5 Brigade went in fully armed and equipped and prepared to use full military force if required when confronting armed insurrectionists. Several thousand troops were deployed or on stand by. A psyops program even included making howitzers, helicopters and even jets very obvious to the insurrectionists and having three Leopard C2s with dozer blades as a backup to clear barricades. de Chastelain was the CDS at the time and quite clear as to the army's purpose and Armand Roy, as bde commander, made it well known that the objective was the Warrior's unconditional surrender and that he had authority to use whatever force was necessary.

 

[lenaitch]

If needed, depending on what you're up to, it takes about a week or two to train up a rifle company, or just about any group of CAF members, to do crowd/ riot control.

The C&C and justice systems? That's whole other training program that will be needed before the military gets deployed to crack heads in Canada

Just make sure you learn the 'Molotov Mamba'

In the 'aid of the civil power' role (crowd control, etc.), the authority to crack heads is the same a civilian law enforcement so it boils down to staffing and deployment. As we saw in Ottawa (once OPS got out of its way), civilian law enforcement is well up to the task.

 

[daftandbarmy]

In the 'aid of the civil power' role (crowd control, etc.), the authority to crack heads is the same a civilian law enforcement so it boils down to staffing and deployment. As we saw in Ottawa (once OPS got out of its way), civilian law enforcement is well up to the task.

Thank Gawd.

No more of these situations please....

 

[brihard]

As we saw in Ottawa (once OPS got out of its way), civilian law enforcement is well up to the task.

Just to be clear, the only part of OPS ‘in the way’ was the service’s chief. But yeah, for the overwhelming majority of crowd ops, it’s within the skills, mandate, and abilities of civilian police, given sufficient mutual support for larger situations.

 

[lenaitch]

Thank Gawd.

No more of these situations please....

View attachment 96079

But as @FJAG points out, that wasn't an aid to the civil power situation; it was considered an insurrection (under the laws of the day).

 

[daftandbarmy]

But as @FJAG points out, that wasn't an aid to the civil power situation; it was considered an insurrection (under the laws of the day).

Yeah, even then, putting troops in a situation like that is a sign of pretty bad leadership all round...

 

[Cloud Cover]

What worries me, is that this pivot is just a reaction to DJT and his presidency. And if DJT loses the midterms and then crashes in the next election every things will go back to 2023.

Legit and most likely outcome. Except you will have to return your pay raises as well.

 

[FJAG]

But as @FJAG points out, that wasn't an aid to the civil power situation; it was considered an insurrection (under the laws of the day).

I don't want what I said misunderstood. It was an insurrection, but the legal mechanism to bring troops into play for Operation SALON was as a result of a formal written request for Aid of the Civil Power by the Province of Quebec to the Federal government under the NDA.

Insurrection was a part of the War Measures Act. By then, the War Measures Act used by Trudeau in 1970 had been replaced by the Emergencies Act. Under Part II of that Act the the Federal government can (without a provincial request) declare a Public Order Emergency - it doesn't directly mention insurrection. That's what was used in Ottawa in 2022. It is initiated by the Feds and gives them various powers to act.

Note that the term "insurrection" is also part of the definition of an "emergency" under the NDA (along with riot, invasion, armed conflict whether real or apprehended.) Under the NDA, a situation of an emergency allows the government to do specific things such as placing the CAF or a part of it on active service (NDA 31(1)(a); put a pause on releases (NDA 30)

Op Salon however was a standard Aid of the Civil Power request.

 

[Maxman1]

Thank Gawd.

No more of these situations please....

View attachment 96079

Or worse, this:

 

[KevinB]

Or worse, this:

Notice she has a nomex glove…

 

[ytz]

I dont see Russia getting stronger. The demographics are terrible and were terrible before the war. Hard to see them not being worse going forward unless they manage to pull off some magical sociological response. Their oil and gas industry is going to have a long hard climb back while perspective and former customers have moved on to other sources and continue to move away from.

Doesnt mean that things wont happen though. Depending on your adversary to act in what you think is a rational manner is unwise i think

Paradoxically, that makes them more dangerous. Not less. Their leadership (Putin in Russia, CCP/Xi in China) perceive a "use it or lose it" moment where they have peak power that they must convert into territorial gain or at least use to substantially weaken their adversaries. Putin may not be able to take over parts of Poland. But he probably could take the Baltics with enough troops, especially if NATO refuses to allow ROEs striking into Russia. The Baltics have little strategic depth for NATO and plenty for Russia. He could also absolutely wreck the economy with the start of that war. And we all know how weak Westerners are when it comes to economic pain.

This is why it's exceptionally dangerous of the West not to give Ukraine the ability to substantially damage Russia. Forget a handful of strikes on distillation columns with drones carrying 100 lb warheads. Give the Ukrainians the ability to destroy each refinery beyond repair for at least 6 months. Give them the intel to double tap the repair crews. Make sure it's not just a petrol shortage (as it is now). Let the Ukrainians make it a diesel shortage forcing Russia to make a choice between diesel for war and diesel for food. Impose an actually difficult choice on Putin. It's the only way to deter further aggression.

It's unbelievable what NATO has allowed from Putin. And we are more likely to regret that appeasement than not.

 

[Kirkhill]

I don't want what I said misunderstood. It was an insurrection, but the legal mechanism to bring troops into play for Operation SALON was as a result of a formal written request for Aid of the Civil Power by the Province of Quebec to the Federal government under the NDA.

Insurrection was a part of the War Measures Act. By then, the War Measures Act used by Trudeau in 1970 had been replaced by the Emergencies Act. Under Part II of that Act the the Federal government can (without a provincial request) declare a Public Order Emergency - it doesn't directly mention insurrection. That's what was used in Ottawa in 2022. It is initiated by the Feds and gives them various powers to act.

Note that the term "insurrection" is also part of the definition of an "emergency" under the NDA (along with riot, invasion, armed conflict whether real or apprehended.) Under the NDA, a situation of an emergency allows the government to do specific things such as placing the CAF or a part of it on active service (NDA 31(1)(a); put a pause on releases (NDA 30)

Op Salon however was a standard Aid of the Civil Power request.

What happens if someone shows up at the next angry mob du jour with a few RPGs?

 

[Maxman1]

Notice she has a nomex glove…

The whole thing was done intentionally to garner an emotional reaction. She apparently got into it with the same soldier the previous day and tried to start a fight with him again when they sent women and children through.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Notice she has a nomex glove…

What is the significance of the Nomex glove ? Fire bomb thrower ?

 

[ytz]

What happens if someone shows up at the next angry mob du jour with a few RPGs?

That becomes less about crowd control and more about terrorism. But you can't treat each protest as a terrorist event.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

The whole thing was done intentionally to garner an emotional reaction. She apparently got into it with the same soldier the previous day and tried to start a fight with him again when they sent women and children through.

Sorry my mind is a little fazy, but what operation was this?

 

[KevinB]

Sorry my mind is a little fazy, but what operation was this?

Op Salon. The summer/fall of 1990.
Mohawk reserve issues in Oka/Awkwesasne.
Started as a dispute over a golf course, led to bridge closure and a SQ raid in which one officer was killed - and an armed stand off that required 5bde.

 

[KevinB]

What is the significance of the Nomex glove ? Fire bomb thrower ?

Better kit
I was more Tongue in Cheek. But still relevant.
As the flak vests issued for that were not designed for small arms fire and a .22LR pistol would easily penetrate them (and some air rifles fwiw).

 

[Maxman1]

Also known as the Oka Crisis.

 

[QV]

If needed, depending on what you're up to, it takes about a week or two to train up a rifle company, or just about any group of CAF members, to do crowd/ riot control.

The C&C and justice systems? That's whole other training program that will be needed before the military gets deployed to crack heads in Canada

Just make sure you learn the 'Molotov Mamba'

I recall my battalion had to do riot control training during a work up for a deployment. A handful of us were trained on the Remington 870 with rubber shot. They were garbage as half the time there would just be a big flame and the rubber balls would roll out the barrel.