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Trump administration 2024-2028

Quirky said:
Or…you know…just don’t be a fat disgrace.
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In today's war, it's better to be in a fully manned unit filled with soldiers with beards and dad bods than a understrength unit filled with gym buffs.

Because as Ukraine and Russia are finding out, drones don't care how many pull ups you can do, how fast you can run, and how much hair you have on your face.
 
The crazy left would have everyone believe health and discipline are bad for performance.

On another note, I also hear (from babylonbee) James Comey produced a letter from 51 intelligence experts suggesting he has the hallmarks of an innocent man.
 
Altair said:
In today's war, it's better to be in a fully manned unit filled with soldiers with beards and dad bods than a understrength unit filled with gym buffs.

Because as Ukraine and Russia are finding out, drones don't care how many pull ups you can do, how fast you can run, and how much hair you have on your face.
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Combat arms unit? I'll take fit soldiers.

Drones being a recent addition to the battle space isn't justification to not be fit. Ukraine also reminded us that CQC still happens.
 
Altair said:
In today's war, it's better to be in a fully manned unit filled with soldiers with beards and dad bods than a understrength unit filled with gym buffs.
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Excuses from the fatties is what I hear. You can be in a fully manned unit and still be fit, there is no excuse for it. Fat people in uniform are disguising disgraces who have no self-respect. Get your ass off the couch and MOVE!
 
Jarnhamar said:
Combat arms unit? I'll take fit soldiers.

Drones being a recent addition to the battle space isn't justification to not be fit. Ukraine also reminded us that CQC still happens.
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Except Pete hasn't said just combat arm soldiers has he?

Regardless, both sides seem to acknowledge that there is a 20-30 mile kill zone, a no man's land where death and destruction via FPV and Fiber optic drones can, in the case of the Russians, cause up to 50 percent casually figures.

Modern warfare is showing that war is a matter of numbers. So 30 fit guys versus 100 unfit guys. Drones kill 25 guys on each side. Which unit would you rather be in? Probably not the unit with 5 guys facing off versus 75.

The lesson of the Ukraine Russia war is get everyone you can to be able to sustain yourself during the attrition. The USA is saying get rid of overweight soldiers and those with beards.

It's the exact opposite of the lesson that should be learned from the Ukraine war. Russia has elite troops,the VDV. They get chewed up as badly as any other unit. Drones don't care. It isn't elite super fit soldiers changing the course of the war, it's the massive numbers of replacements for the dead and wounded that are, and Russia and Ukraine don't care if they are 45 with one working hand, that's enough to keep the war going.
 
Quirky said:
Excuses from the fatties is what I hear. You can be in a fully manned unit and still be fit, there is no excuse for it. Fat people in uniform are disguising disgraces who have no self-respect. Get your ass off the couch and MOVE!
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And when all the fit soldiers are dead, then what?
 
dapaterson said:
Canadian steel maker appears to be about to invoke force majeure in dealing with a US supplier.

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Y A Y Yes GIF by Djemilah Birnie
 
Altair said:
Except Pete hasn't said just combat arm soldiers has he?
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1/3rd a company isnt understrength it's ineffective.

We could drop all fitness and health standards so we can get 500 morbidly obese soldiers instead of just 100 unfit ones.

Hegseth is obviously dog whistling. The US military can't afford to hold all of it's female soldiers to male fitness standards, or everyone to Army Ranger fitness (hyperbole of course). But drones are still not an excuse to go for a Stalin-style quantity over quality mentality.
 
Jarnhamar said:
1/3rd a company isnt understrength it's ineffective.
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The principle is the same.

Russia, and to a lesser extent, Ukraine, are proving that drones, which are only getting deadlier and being fielded in ever increasing numbers, are causing ever increasing numbers of dead and wounded. Units that are better able to reinforce are going to be more effective than units that focus solely on fitness and beards.
Jarnhamar said:
We could drop all fitness and health standards so we can get 500 morbidly obese soldiers instead of just 100 unfit ones.
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And that unit of 500 obese soldiers will outlast the unit of 100 unfit ones who themselves would outlast a unit of 50 super fit soldiers.

We can pretend like Russia and Ukraine don't know what they are doing, but fun fact, they are two of the most combat experienced armies in the world right now and we disregard what they are learning at our peril. I've seen the drone strike videos on Reddit, NSFW clearly. When a drone is bearing down on these guys, do you think it matters worth a damn whether they can do 100 push ups, run 15 kms, and 6 pack abs? They turn to meat. And when they need to replaced, and fast, are the Russians training these guys to be to the same standard as their VDV? No. They get someone who knows how to hold a rifle and point them to the enemy and hope they aren't turned to meat as well.
Jarnhamar said:
Hegseth is obviously dog whistling. The US military can't afford to hold all of it's female soldiers to male fitness standards, or everyone to Army Ranger fitness (hyperbole of course). But drones are still not an excuse to go for a Stalin-style quantity over quality mentality.
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Listen, in a perfect world, fit troops>unfit troops.

In the hellscape that Russia and Ukraine are showing, with drones becoming the leading cause of death for both sides, any troop>fit troops.

If front line units in future peer to peer combat are taking 30-50 percent casualties per assault, the focus needs to be on how to replace those losses, not how fit the replacements are, otherwise you're going to start getting 30 vs 100 engagements with drones still killing those that remain.

The fact that secdef and the CINC of the USA are taking the exact opposite lesson of this when we are quickly ramping up to a period of direct conflict with Russia, who are not even pretending now that they don't view themselves at war with NATO, is highly concerning. Sure, one will learn lessons and pivot as needed, but those lessons will come at a steep cost, and if they had learned the lessons that Russia and Ukraine have been teaching everyone about the realities of what drone warfare looks like, the cost would be far cheaper.
 
Altair said:
Except Pete hasn't said just combat arm soldiers has he?

Regardless, both sides seem to acknowledge that there is a 20-30 mile kill zone, a no man's land where death and destruction via FPV and Fiber optic drones can, in the case of the Russians, cause up to 50 percent casually figures.

Modern warfare is showing that war is a matter of numbers. So 30 fit guys versus 100 unfit guys. Drones kill 25 guys on each side. Which unit would you rather be in? Probably not the unit with 5 guys facing off versus 75.

The lesson of the Ukraine Russia war is get everyone you can to be able to sustain yourself during the attrition. The USA is saying get rid of overweight soldiers and those with beards.

It's the exact opposite of the lesson that should be learned from the Ukraine war. Russia has elite troops,the VDV. They get chewed up as badly as any other unit. Drones don't care. It isn't elite super fit soldiers changing the course of the war, it's the massive numbers of replacements for the dead and wounded that are, and Russia and Ukraine don't care if they are 45 with one working hand, that's enough to keep the war going.
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Drones are one thing, but a squad of hackers can do major damage to a country by targeting infra, banking and other basic things that now rely heavily on computers. Fitness helps for sure generally, but there are definitely people that would never meet any standard that we would really want within our walls working for us if we really took cyber seriously when you look at skillsets.

No one has really done much on that overtly, because it's such a potentially massive and wide reaching thing to do, but SK did have some major banking system disruption that they are pretty sure NK did, and there are plenty of examples like Israel killing some Iranian uranium production via viruses. I'm sure the US, Russia, China and others already have killswitches and other dormant backdoors to do that kind of thing, but kind of a cyber nuclear option no one wants to cross.

The CAF perenially sacrifices personnel health and welfare at the altar of 'achieve the mission' regularly, and for a lot of people the unhealthy habits are also a stress response, so when people are covering 3 or 4 jobs, frequently a rank or two higher, and still keeping things kind of going, calling them out on fitness is pretty hypocritical when you are running them into the ground. Because if you take the time for PT during your work day, and don't make up extra hours or try and keep up with mopping the waterfall and get fit, people will bitch about work not getting done.
 
Navy_Pete said:
Drones are one thing, but a squad of hackers can do major damage to a country by targeting infra, banking and other basic things that now rely heavily on computers. Fitness helps for sure generally, but there are definitely people that would never meet any standard that we would really want within our walls working for us if we really took cyber seriously when you look at skillsets.

No one has really done much on that overtly, because it's such a potentially massive and wide reaching thing to do, but SK did have some major banking system disruption that they are pretty sure NK did, and there are plenty of examples like Israel killing some Iranian uranium production via viruses. I'm sure the US, Russia, China and others already have killswitches and other dormant backdoors to do that kind of thing, but kind of a cyber nuclear option no one wants to cross.

The CAF perenially sacrifices personnel health and welfare at the altar of 'achieve the mission' regularly, and for a lot of people the unhealthy habits are also a stress response, so when people are covering 3 or 4 jobs, frequently a rank or two higher, and still keeping things kind of going, calling them out on fitness is pretty hypocritical when you are running them into the ground. Because if you take the time for PT during your work day, and don't make up extra hours or try and keep up with mopping the waterfall and get fit, people will bitch about work not getting done.
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Yeah, to say the least, for non combat Arms troops, fitness, while great, should not be the end all of their contributions to the military.

But even within the combat Arms, there is a serious argument to be made that fitness should not be the end all of their contributions to the military.

On the Ukrainian side, the western trained troops in their summer offensive took massive losses.

On the Russian side, them emptying their prisons and putting those men in uniform had a more positive impact on the battlefield than tossing in their elite, very fit, paratroopers into the fray.
 
Altair said:
The principle is the same.
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If your plan is to sit people in trenches catching drones in the face and not moving anywhere then 100%.

Altair said:
Russia, and to a lesser extent, Ukraine, are proving that drones, which are only getting deadlier and being fielded in ever increasing numbers, are causing ever increasing numbers of dead and wounded. Units that are better able to reinforce are going to be more effective than units that focus solely on fitness and beards.
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I don't believe anyone is arguing for units to "focus solely on fitness". Is that guy in the US arguing for this?

You can be reasonably fit while being busy at work and taking care of your family.

Altair said:
And that unit of 500 obese soldiers will outlast the unit of 100 unfit ones who themselves would outlast a unit of 50 super fit soldiers.
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I dont think you have a realistic view on unfit vs fit soldiers in combat operations (again, outside or sitting in a trench and your only job is to catch drones)

Altair said:
We can pretend like Russia and Ukraine don't know what they are doing, but fun fact, they are two of the most combat experienced armies in the world right now and we disregard what they are learning at our peril.
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I don't religiously watch videos but I don't see a lot of obese Ukrainian and Russian soldiers on the front lines.

Altair said:
I've seen the drone strike videos on Reddit, NSFW clearly. When a drone is bearing down on these guys, do you think it matters worth a damn whether they can do 100 push ups, run 15 kms, and 6 pack abs? They turn to meat.
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Honestly yes. There's as many videos out there of soldiers narrowly dodging drone strikes. Navigating through chaotic trenches and making it to overhead protection just in time. Running for cover, and of course carrying out one of the best forms of combat - trench warfare.

Altair said:
If front line units in future peer to peer combat are taking 30-50 percent casualties per assault, the focus needs to be on how to replace those losses,
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Unfit and out of shape soldiers increase the risk; now you're taking 70% casualties.
 
I’m not going to argue troops don’t need to be fit. They absolutely should be. I also seen chubbies out PT “fitter” troops. I don’t know how they do it but they do it.

I would say that Ukraine has shown us that beards do not make troops ineffective and Russia has shown us that hazing, beatings and austere conditions do not make effective troops.
 
I don't know where the whole beard hate thing came from, but aside from CBRN and FF requirements around the mask fit well groomed and properly maintained beards and facial hair generally shouldn't be an issue. Plenty of people look terrible clean shaven, and some people manage to have messy short hair, so if presentation is the thing SECDEF is getting wound up about that's really what should be the focus.

Those people that rolled around looking like homeless bridge trolls that hadn't seen a comb in decades weeks after they loosened things with Beardforgen is what ruined it, not the guys spending hours a week sculpting some kind of viking or Hammarabi beard; that level of beardcare is a level of grooming that goes way beyond what most women will ever do for hairstyling.
 
Jarnhamar said:
If your plan is to sit people in trenches catching drones in the face and not moving anywhere then 100%.
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Except the Russians have been grabbing troops of questionable quality and throwing them at the frontline. Ukraine is scooping men off the streets to throw them at the front. Both sides of that war are not looking for the most fit, most capable men to man their fronts. They are looking for men, period.
Jarnhamar said:
I don't believe anyone is arguing for units to "focus solely on fitness". Is that guy in the US arguing for this?
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When it comes to combat arms units, and there are many different stripes across our joint force, the era of politically correct, overly sensitive, don't hurt anyone's feelings leadership ends right now. At every level, either you can meet the standard, either you can do the job, either you are disciplined, fit and trained, or you are out.

And that's why today at my direction -- and this is the first of ten Department of War directives that are arriving at your commands as we speak and in your inbox. Today, at my direction, each service will ensure that every requirement for every combat MOS, for every designated combat arms position returns to the highest male standard only. Because this job is life or death. Standards must be met. And not just met. At every level, we should seek to exceed the standard, to push the envelope, to compete. It's common sense and core to who we are and what we do. It should be in our DNA.

Today, at my direction, we are also adding a combat field test for combat arms units that must be executable in any environment at any time and with combat equipment. These tests, they'll look familiar. They'll resemble the Army Expert Physical Fitness Assessment or the Marine Corps Combat Fitness Test. I'm also directing that warfighters in combat jobs execute their service fitness test at a gender-neutral age normed male standard scored above 70 percent.

It all starts with physical fitness and appearance. If the secretary of war can do regular hard PT, so can every member of our joint force. Frankly, it's tiring to look out at combat formations, or really any formation, and see fat troops. Likewise, it's completely unacceptable to see fat generals and admirals in the halls of the Pentagon and leading commands around the country and the world. It's a bad look. It is bad, and it's not who we are.

So, whether you're an airborne Ranger or a chairborne Ranger, a brand new private or a four star general, you need to meet the height and weight standards and pass your PT test. And as the chairman said, yes, there is no PT test. But today, at my direction, every member of the joint force at every rank is required to take a PT test twice a year, as well as meet height and weight requirements twice a year every year of service.
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I would say yes.
Jarnhamar said:
You can be reasonably fit while being busy at work and taking care of your family.
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Sure. In attritional warfare, I don't see that as being the reason for being able to serve or not.
Jarnhamar said:
I dont think you have a realistic view on unfit vs fit soldiers in combat operations (again, outside or sitting in a trench and your only job is to catch drones)
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Soldiers in Ukraine have many jobs, they just happen to be catching drones.


Drones are responsible for a staggering 60 to 70 percent of killed and wounded soldiers in Ukraine, according to combat medics.
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Jarnhamar said:
I don't religiously watch videos but I don't see a lot of obese Ukrainian and Russian soldiers on the front lines.
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I see fat soldiers, I see thin soldiers, I see soldiers who look like they are pushing 60, I see soldiers who look like they just got out of high school. Drones blow them up all the same.
Jarnhamar said:
Honestly yes. There's as many videos out there of soldiers narrowly dodging drone strikes. Navigating through chaotic trenches and making it to overhead protection just in time. Running for cover, and of course carrying out one of the best forms of combat - trench warfare.
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You also see troops in the open assaulting a position just accepting their fate because, one, it's the steppes, and two, the drone will follow them to kill them. And if they dodge one...there is another. And another. Fitness, its great, but it's not the end all of combat arms soldiers. Numbers are.
Jarnhamar said:
Unfit and out of shape soldiers increase the risk; now you're taking 70% casualties.
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Again, even with those numbers, replacing them is the most important part. Does the USA limit recruitment because more people aren't going to make the standards? They are looking to have a situation where they have less and less reinforcements for their losses, while a country like Russia is simply filling the ranks with whoever will sign up. And that's if your numbers even make sense, which they don't seem to, because the VDV, who I don't believe anyone would call unfit, are facing the same casualty numbers. Drones don't care.
 
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