Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[Colin Parkinson]

But did the oarsmen wear square rig?

loincloths, with no toque or gloves

 

[dapaterson]

loincloths, with no toque or gloves

What about the fleece though?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

What about the fleece though?

An RFI was put out for Fleeces, only 1 came back and the only colour option is gold. The issue though there was no indigenous involvement, and the company apparently was up on charges of animal cruelty. There is also a dispute of ownership and the last person who tried to acquire it was burned.

 

[NavyShooter]

I understand there was some question about the originality of that ship as well...something about parts replacement and such.

 

[Underway]

I understand there was some question about the originality of that ship as well...something about parts replacement and such.

Theseus was so annoying. Replace this, fix that.

 

[Kirkhill]

This here Continental Defence Corvette thingy...

Taking a closer look at what Singapore has just bought.

Their 8000 tonne MRCV that they are buying, apparently it is an OMT Absalon.

The Danes built 5 for about 300 MUSD apiece. That price was derided and slick accounting practices were suggested.

Singapore is buying 6 of them for 1.2 BUSD or 200 MUSD apiece.

They will have a crew of <100, 80 is suggested. Speed of about 24 knots and a range of 7000 nm.

The contract was let in 2023 and the first hull is in the water.

ST Engineering bags estimated $1.2 billion deal to build multirole combat vessels for Singapore Navy - APDR

Following the announcement of the new contract signed between Singapore and ST Engineering to build multirole combat vessels, Akash Pratim Debbarma, Defense Analyst at GlobalData, offered his view:

asiapacificdefencereporter.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Would it be wrong to suggest they are building civilian RORO ferries and supplying them with point defense systems? Then using them as cruising motherships?

The UK Type 31 variants cost about 325 MUSD each exclusive of GFE.

The Polish variant costs about twice that with all weapons and systems.

If we are driving the expectations for the MCDV replacement north of the 1000 tonne NSP small ship limit then why not go whole hog and buy something that can operate as a mothership and move equipment and be used for disaster relief?

Harvest the systems from the Halifaxes and MCDVs. That is how the Danes kept their costs down in the first place.

 

[Furniture]

Would it be wrong to suggest they are building civilian RORO ferries and supplying them with point defense systems? Then using them as cruising motherships?

The UK Type 31 variants cost about 325 MUSD each exclusive of GFE.

The Polish variant costs about twice that with all weapons and systems.

If we are driving the expectations for the MCDV replacement north of the 1000 tonne NSP small ship limit then why not go whole hog and buy something that can operate as a mothership and move equipment and be used for disaster relief?

Harvest the systems from the Halifaxes and MCDVs. That is how the Danes kept their costs down in the first place.

The intent to "mothership" in peace time is to use rented commercial ships. Why spend 200M when you can do what you need to for few million at a time?

The CDCs are intended to be small warships.

 

[Kirkhill]

The intent to "mothership" in peace time is to use rented commercial ships. Why spend 200M when you can do what you need to for few million at a time?

The CDCs are intended to be small warships.

Unless you are prrmanently cruising a patch of ocean and maintaining an array of UxVs while supporting some sort of onboard QRF?

Those small warships seem to keep growing with more stuff being added to the wish list.

 

[YZT580]

Unless you are prrmanently cruising a patch of ocean and maintaining an array of UxVs while supporting some sort of onboard QRF?

Those small warships seem to keep growing with more stuff being added to the wish list.

time to think is the enemy of good enough

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I would rather get a few different classes of small ships, couple of training vessels to replace the Kingston's, couple of dedicated MCM vessels and the CDC's. Try to have some commonality in equipment with the different vessels if possible.

 

[Kirkhill]

I would rather get a few different classes of small ships, couple of training vessels to replace the Kingston's, couple of dedicated MCM vessels and the CDC's. Try to have some commonality in equipment with the different vessels if possible.

Given the price disparity between a Type 26 and a River Class what do you reckon will be the price of the Corvette?

Type 26 frigate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And the Type 31 Absalon costs about 1/5 th (20%) as much as a Type 26.

 

[Kirkhill]

Another point of comparison:

With the Absalon/Type 31running between 200 snd 300 MUSD for the actual ship in sailing condition then one ship costs roughly the same as three F35As in flyaway condition.

Current flyaway cost of an F35A is apparently 82.5 MUSD.


.....

And Singapore is paying about 145 MUSD for each of its 1200 tonne OPVs.

Independence-class littoral mission vessel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kirkhill]

Not that I expect Canada to ever buy anything at world market prices. It suits people to inflate the costs, especially as we try to claim we are going to spend 5% of GDP.

I won't be surprised if we end up buying 100 MCAD Leos from Quebec.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Given the price disparity between a Type 26 and a River Class what do you reckon will be the price of the Corvette?

Type 26 frigate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And the Type 31 Absalon costs about 1/5 th (20%) as much as a Type 26.

Assuming everyone is using the same pricing standard. I could see the Type 31 costing 1/3-1/2 of the Type 26, 1/5th sounds like a stretch.

 

[Kirkhill]

Assuming everyone is using the same pricing standard. I could see the Type 31 costing 1/3-1/2 of the Type 26, 1/5th sounds like a stretch.

Type 31 pricing typically seems to be the price for a vessel that can float and move.

The cost of the fighting gear is in addition.

The Danes kept their costs down by transferring weapons they owned from decommissioned ships to the new hulls.

We could do the same with weapons, sensors and battle management systems from the CPFs and MCDVs.

 

[Kirkhill]

2023 prices per Wiki

Type 26

UK Batch 1 1.4 BUKP @ = 2.6 BCAD
UK Batch 2 0.9 BUKP @ = 1.7 BCAD
Australia 3.9 BAUD @ = 3.6 BCAD
Canada 4.5 BCAD @ = 4.5 BCAD
Norway 2.0 BUKP @ = 3.7 BCAD

Norway's price is 2025

Type 31

Absalon 2003 189 MUSD
Huitfeldt 2008 325 MUSD
Type 31 2019 268 MUKP
Indonesia 2021 240 to 480 MUSD
Poland 2022 460 MUKP
Singapore 2023 200 MUSD

....

So call it 250 MCAD for the ship and another 100 to 200 MCAD per ship if you bought new systems.

 

[CBH99]

Type 31 pricing typically seems to be the price for a vessel that can float and move.

The cost of the fighting gear is in addition.

The Danes kept their costs down by transferring weapons they owned from decommissioned ships to the new hulls.

We could do the same with weapons, sensors and battle management systems from the CPFs and MCDVs.

I don't think that's going to work...

When it's time to fit weapons & sensors to the River Class, nothing other the CIWS systems and maybe a few RWS will be transferrable.


The CMS, radars/sonars, weapon systens, etc are all in a whole other league than what's on the CPF's now

 

[Lumber]

I don't think that's going to work...

When it's time to fit weapons & sensors to the River Class, nothing other the CIWS systems and maybe a few RWS will be transferrable.


The CMS, radars/sonars, weapon systens, etc are all in a whole other league than what's on the CPF's now

Uhh... hate to call you out but, while different, they are not all in a different league.

The CMS going into the RCD is Aegis and CTI, and CTI is just CMS330 with a different name. In fact, until recently, the plan was for the "main" CMS of the RCD to be CMS330, and Aegis was just going to be the "Fire Control Loop". The entire German navy is about to switch over to CMS330 because they like it so much.

The torpedoes will be the same between the two ships, the only difference being the launching system, and honestly there is no functional difference between SVTTs.

The RCD could have gone with the 57mm instead of a 5", and there are very valid arguments as to why you would want one over the other. It's all about expected mission set vice the actual quality/capability of the 57mm.

Nav Radars could easily be shifted over. MASS could have been switched over. SRD-506 and ELISRA could have been swtiched over (though Im happy they are NOT switching over ELISRA).

Harpoon could have been switcher over. The NSM is better than the Harpoon, but given that the RCD is primarily going to be an ASW and AAW platform, having a suboptimal ASuW capability could have been a trade off for cost savings/program simplification (but, I'm personally happy we are going with NSM, don't get me wrong).

ASW sensors... yea, you have a very good point there.

 

[Nvlgzr]

I don't think that's going to work...

When it's time to fit weapons & sensors to the River Class, nothing other the CIWS systems and maybe a few RWS will be transferrable.


The CMS, radars/sonars, weapon systens, etc are all in a whole other league than what's on the CPF's now

I thought the discussion about using Halifax equipment was for the corvettes. Lockheed is already sourcing River class components.
I think we need to start a separate thread for the CMC, Canadian Multi-mission Corvette.