The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[ytz]

Planning a fighter sortie takes 2-3 hrs, followed by a 1 hr brief, a 1-2 hr flight, followed by. 2-4 hr debrief. The overhead in fighter ops is enormous because of the complexity.

What are you guys going to do with all that free time when the mission planner does all your homework for you? Volleyball pitch re-enactments from Top Gun?

I kid. I kid.....

But has there been any discussion about how your planning workflow will change with that new trade?

 

[markppcli]

It's not even the flying part that is necessarily hard (though it might be if you're doing it only occasionally). It's being proficient at employing the airplane as a weapon that's the truly challenging part.

And until we have fully stacked up our fighter force, the training system, etc we just don't need part-timers as fighter pilots. And really most of NATO is the same.

The US is exceptional with the air national guard because they have the full range of full time reservist to people that just do a 2-4 flights a months to maintain currency, but not proficiency. They have the insane amount of airplanes, support infrastructure and funding to do that. And even then most is the Air NG is not fighters. Maybe if the RCAF ever gets to 400+ jet cockpits we can start thinking about this. But I highly doubt that will happen, especially as automation eliminates more cockpits.

People also tend to forget that the US sends surplus ROTC (to include their sister service equivilants) to commissions into their reserve / guard.

 

[childs56]

Keep doing things the way they are and hope for the best I guess.

No way to create a Reserve Fighter pilot cadre from current commerical pilots.
1. They aren't in as good of physical shape as fighter pilots.
2. They don't have the mission planning training and or expierance.
3. They don't have the time avaliable.
4. They might burn the popcorn in the machine and ruin the movie screen.
5. We don't have the required equipment.
6. Not enough training resources.
7. It won't work similar to the US because we don't do the same thing. (Why are we buying the same.aircraft then)?

Great discussion, good to hear from the subject matter experts.
I am still wondering after all these years if our Griffon helicopters could fly in Afghanistan? A few people a number of years ago said they couldn't.....

 

[ytz]

People also tend to forget that the US sends surplus ROTC (to include their sister service equivilants) to commissions into their reserve / guard.

Rough math says that the US has 33x the number of military aircraft across all their services that the RCAF does. When you're that big your manpower considerations are just different.

It's not unusual to come across an American reservist flyer whose day job is completely mundane like insurance salesman or realtor. Something where it won't conflict with flying too much. Their airlines are so large that their airlines will accept someone who is less than full time while fitting in reserve flying. Etc . It's all very different from us.

And to follow on from your ROTC point, they just don't care about spending money on training. Just look at up or out. While on post grad exchange in the US, had a friend who didn't make his second look. Got a release message for after graduation. They paid this guy's STEM Master's and happily gave him the boot. They'll actually take Guardsman, make them full time for several years till they get wings and then let them work off the commitment after, for a bunch of years part time. That's the luxury of being rich. We put a million bucks getting our folks up to OTU grad on a fighter and there's no way we want 7 years of part time service.

 

[childs56]

I also wonder how the Pilots proficiency cross country flights will be effected with the F35 security requirements. No more going to smaller towns/ US destinations.
Will Simulator time suffice?

 

[Furniture]

I also wonder how the Pilots proficiency cross country flights will be effected with the F35 security requirements. No more going to smaller towns/ US destinations.
Will Simulator time suffice?

Might mean a few less Super Bowl flights with the mistress, but I'm sure the RCAF will figure it out.

 

[PrairieFella]

Keep doing things the way they are and hope for the best I guess.

No way to create a Reserve Fighter pilot cadre from current commerical pilots.
1. They aren't in as good of physical shape as fighter pilots.
2. They don't have the mission planning training and or expierance.
3. They don't have the time avaliable.
4. They might burn the popcorn in the machine and ruin the movie screen.
5. We don't have the required equipment.
6. Not enough training resources.
7. It won't work similar to the US because we don't do the same thing. (Why are we buying the same.aircraft then)?

Great discussion, good to hear from the subject matter experts.
I am still wondering after all these years if our Griffon helicopters could fly in Afghanistan? A few people a number of years ago said they couldn't.....

Why are you latching on to this so tightly when obviously your previous info was incorrect. The humble thing to do would be to accept a SME has more relevant info just as you have more info in whatever trade you were or are.

Youre focusing a lot on ytz and to be fair to him, he isnt trying to tell anyone how to do combat team attacks or how to procure the next medium cav vehicle as an example.

 

[childs56]

Why are you latching on to this so tightly when obviously your previous info was incorrect.

What part is incorrect? Building on skill sets is not being incorrect. Simplifying maybe but not incorrect.
If a reserve pilot plan does not work for use because of the lack of resources we have then maybe we need to add more resources.

The humble thing to do would be to accept a SME has more relevant info just as you have more info in whatever trade you were or are.

Youre focusing a lot on ytz and to be fair to him, he isnt trying to tell anyone how to do combat team attacks or how to procure the next medium cav vehicle as an example.

Simply put the system is broken, and needs to be fixed. We need more pilots, one way to hire more is open our options for hiring them and offer different ways to enter the system.
The CF has run a certain way for decades, those in charge often use lots of excuses to stay the same. They usually run those out who don't conform to their way of process. (often leads to a job after retirement) They hide behind catch phrases and programs. The failures still happen and compound, we should be asking why, can they fix them and how to stop repeating the same over and over again.

Those F35s cant get here soon enough, that should fix all the problems with recruiting, training and retaining pilots.

The end of the day it is a discussion.

 

[ytz]

Why are you latching on to this so tightly when obviously your previous info was incorrect. The humble thing to do would be to accept a SME has more relevant info just as you have more info in whatever trade you were or are.

I see no difference between him and all the folks who recently became instant Wikipedia experts on fighter jets in the socials and regularly lecture us on what the RCAF needs. In this particular case apparently if we just create an entirely new service paradigm all our pilot models can be solved. He knows this because he drove a few pilots around.

Some people just want to believe that the experts are clueless and that they know better. You can clearly see that here:

The CF has run a certain way for decades, those in charge often use lots of excuses to stay the same. They usually run those out who don't conform to their way of process. (often leads to a job after retirement) They hide behind catch phrases and programs. The failures still happen and compound, we should be asking why, can they fix them and how to stop repeating the same over and over again.

"Everybody else in the CAF is clueless but me."

Are you by any chance related to Paul Hellyer?

If you think the RCAF doesn't know how to run itself, you're free to VOT and show us how it's done.

 

[SupersonicMax]

What part is incorrect? Building on skill sets is not being incorrect. Simplifying maybe but not incorrect.
If a reserve pilot plan does not work for use because of the lack of resources we have then maybe we need to add more resources.

Building the skillset is not the issue, if people have 1-2 years to dedicate to gaining the skillsets. Maintaining currency (safely flying the aircraft) is also typically not the issue. The real issue is maintaining proficiency to be effective in the role. We actually employ several experienced Fighters Pilots who have transitioned to other jobs, including the Airlines and all they can realistically do is peacetime NORAD. Before you say we could use this model with untrained commercial pilots, the ones we currently employ average over a thousand hours and multiple Hornet flying tours. Before they could get there, commercial pilots would need at least a full tour (4 years) of regular flying the Hornet (2-3 times a week. That’s 30 hrs per week of wirk), on top of training. That’s 6 years full time on the Hornet or in a very part time capacity with their airlines, something companies don’t entertain. The US has laws that force companies to let reservists/guardsmen go for military service.

Flying a fighter is easy. Fighting with it is what is difficult. You want Fighter Pilots, not pilots flying fighters.

 

[NavyShooter]

Building the skillset is not the issue, if people have 1-2 years to dedicate to gaining the skillsets. Maintaining currency (safely flying the aircraft) is also typically not the issue. The real issue is maintaining proficiency to be effective in the role. We actually employ several experienced Fighters Pilots who have transitioned to other jobs, including the Airlines and all they can realistically do is peacetime NORAD. Before you say we could use this model with untrained commercial pilots, the ones we currently employ average over a thousand hours and multiple Hornet flying tours. Before they could get there, commercial pilots would need at least a full tour (4 years) of regular flying the Hornet (2-3 times a week. That’s 30 hrs per week of wirk), on top of training. That’s 6 years full time on the Hornet or in a very part time capacity with their airlines, something companies don’t entertain. The US has laws that force companies to let reservists/guardsmen go for military service.

Flying a fighter is easy. Fighting with it is what is difficult. You want Fighter Pilots, not pilots flying fighters.

Max,

Some very good points to ponder. Related question - with the F-35's mission awareness/situational awareness/data sharing/sensor fusion aspects, will that make the fighting part of flying easier for the pilots?

And, I suspect you're understating how easy it is to fly a fighter...I suspect there's more to it than meets the eye.

NS

 

[Czech_pivo]

I also wonder how the Pilots proficiency cross country flights will be effected with the F35 security requirements. No more going to smaller towns/ US destinations.
Will Simulator time suffice?

Wait, there are smaller towns than Cold Lake and Bagotville?

 

[markppcli]

What part is incorrect? Building on skill sets is not being incorrect. Simplifying maybe but not incorrect.

No, when you "simplify" to the point of ignoring all inputs from reality you're simply just wrong. Its not about closing ranks, frankly other posters have been beyond patient explaining in detail the issues.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Some people just want to believe that the experts are clueless and that they know better. You can clearly see that here:

"Everybody else in the CAF is clueless but me."

If you think the RCAF doesn't know how to run itself, you're free to VOT and show us how it's done.

Ok, I'll bite. More than willing to be chastised, lol.

If the RCAF knows how to run itself, then it should know how to get itself out of the situation that they allowed themselves to get into in the first place. True statement?

Knowing full well that the information that is publicly available rarely tells the whole, complete story, but with it being the only information readily available, I can see the following:

1) "Sep 18, 2018 — But the current training system means the Air Force can only produce 115 new pilots each year,"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/air-force-pilots-short-1.4827862

2) "2021 — losing 100 to 105 pilots per year through attrition with the ability to train 80 to 85 .."

https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/22/305/Boone.pdf

3) "15 Wing graduates on average 110 qualified winged pilots per year."
15 Wing Moose Jaw – Royal Canadian Air Force - Canada.ca - 26 June, 2025

From the above 3 examples over a 7yr time frame, the above shows a high of 115 pilots a year in 2018 to 110 pilots a year in 2025. Is it fair to say that over the last 7yrs that the RCAF has not fixed the problem? That the problem over these 7yrs has gotten worse? Maybe its time to look elsewhere for a possible solution? Because if we go out 3-4yrs from here, after massive compensation increases, bonuses, and other still to be implemented incentives and the number of pilots being trained merely moves up from 110 in 2025 to 115 (where it was back in 2018) or 120, then people in leadership roles need to be fired, put out to pasture, retired or banished to Alert for the reminder of their career.

I've heard some on here in the RCN that Topshee is not 'liked' by some because he is 'too vocal', to willing to speak directly and openly to the Canadian public. Well, I say is refreshing to be told the truth, no matter how much I don't want to hear bad news. Maybe its time that the RCAF's top commander starts speaking loudly and publicly like a Topshee and positive change may happen. What is there to lose?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I see no difference between him and all the folks who recently became instant Wikipedia experts on fighter jets in the socials and regularly lecture us on what the RCAF needs. In this particular case apparently if we just create an entirely new service paradigm all our pilot models can be solved. He knows this because he drove a few pilots around.

Unfortunately uneducated Canadians get a say in what we are equipped with. What we hope is that the heed the advice from CAF members.

I've heard some on here in the RCN that Topshee is not 'liked' by some because he is 'too vocal', to willing to speak directly and openly to the Canadian public. Well, I say is refreshing to be told the truth, no matter how much I don't want to hear bad news. Maybe its time that the RCAF's top commander starts speaking loudly and publicly like a Topshee and positive change may happen. What is there to lose?

Right or wrong RCN very snr leadership has history of being obstreperous at times, going back to Landymore, and I'm sure later. You also have to remember that when Hellyer brought in unification he found a big ally in RCAF snr leadership.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Right or wrong RCN very snr leadership has history of being obstreperous at times, going back to Landymore, and I'm sure later. You also have to remember that when Hellyer brought in unification he found a big ally in RCAF snr leadership.

I tend to move in the circle of those who are defined as the 'rebels' or those that are willing to walk across the street when the little hand is flashing 'stop'.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I tend to move in the circle of those who are defined as the 'rebels' or those that are willing to walk across the street when the little hand is flashing 'stop'.

Good read:

Unification in Canada Fait Accompli

The result of the unification campaign has been a political crisis in Canada and a major institutional crisis in the armed forces.

www.usni.org

 

[OldSolduer]

Unfortunately uneducated Canadians get a say in what we are equipped with.

Maybe that should read “entitled Canadians”

I recall the hue and cry that went out over the EH 101. Chretien sabotaged it with help….

 

[Czech_pivo]

Good read:

Unification in Canada Fait Accompli

The result of the unification campaign has been a political crisis in Canada and a major institutional crisis in the armed forces.

www.usni.org

Thank you for posting this. I will read it end to end.

 

[Nvlgzr]

Note also the F/T-7X variant.

But I take the point about there being other options and note that general concept of a two tier fleet isn't bad.

There is no F/T-7 variant. Given all the delays to the trainer, I don’t believe USAF ever issued an RFI for a fighter variant.