Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[MilEME09]

I must admit, Noah's timelines worry me - a lot. I've seen can kicking down the road many times. This sure feels like it other than the GDLS ACSV bit. Incidentally, what exactly is this "ALAV?" Can't find the term used online. By the way I'm fine with more ACSVs and even a few hundred turretless LAV infantry section carriers with RWS guns and ATGMs, but no more pseudo IFVs please. Let's put our money into building eight to ten battalions worth of CV90 or a Redback here and issue the current LAV turreted ISV's to the second tier forces.

From what I can find ALAV is essentially LAV 6 mk2, and ACSV mk2, it will be a continuous build cycle, once ACSV is done, then LAV 6 mk2 will build, after that ACSV mk2, after that we arrive at 2045 and what ever we want to replace LAV 6 mk2 will start building.

 

[FJAG]

From what I can find ALAV is essentially LAV 6 mk2, and ACSV mk2, it will be a continuous build cycle, once ACSV is done, then LAV 6 mk2 will build, after that ACSV mk2, after that we arrive at 2045 and what ever we want to replace LAV 6 mk2 will start building.

With luck and a little planning, maybe they'll slot in some mortar carriers and MSHORADs and ATGM carriers.

 

[dapaterson]

Correct. Until now, Bombardier has not found a customer gullible enough to pay for the engineering costs required to plumb and certify an AAR set on the Global 6500…

A cordless drill, a garden hose, a funnel, a dowel and a couple rolls of duct tape. Done.

 

[ytz]

This is interesting. The 6 new Global 6500 fleet (+4) will have air 2 air refuelling. Pretty much kicks the E7 in the nuts as far as Canada goes on at least that advantage.

RCAF to acquire six Bombardier Global 6500 multi-role aircraft - Skies Mag

Bombardier and government officials made the announcement at Bombardier’s Global Aircraft Assembly Centre in Toronto, where the Global 6500 aircraft is assembled.

skiesmag.com

What? No.

The E-7 has everything we want. Till now, no other airframe had AAR (which will be mandatory for AEWC). Now there's a possibility that at least one other competitor will have AAR: the L3 Phoenix.

I am not sure the Globaleye can fit the roof mounted receptacle with the radar it has. And the Globaleye still has another big problem: no 360 degree coverage.

This is mostly a big gift to Bombardier. They will now have a base airframe that is AAR capable and type certified. Given how popular the Global 6500 is becoming for ISR this will help them sell even more. Hopefully we can acquire some 6500 based Pegasus (SIGINT) and HADES (SAR/GMTI ISR) platforms.

 

[ytz]

Strengthens the SAAB angle then.

If it was probe refueling. It won't be. The entire RCAF will be on boom refueling after 2032.

 

[McG]

Correct. Until now, Bombardier has not found a customer gullible enough to pay for the engineering costs required to plumb and certify an AAR set on the Global 6500…

A cordless drill, a garden hose, a funnel, a dowel and a couple rolls of duct tape. Done.

The Brits got a couple decades out of their improvisation on the Nimrod before it killed anybody. Maybe we can get the same luck.

 

[dapaterson]

What? No.

The E-7 has everything we want. Till now, no other airframe had AAR (which will be mandatory for AEWC). Now there's a possibility that at least one other competitor will have AAR: the L3 Phoenix.

I am not sure the Globaleye can fit the roof mounted receptacle with the radar it has. And the Globaleye still has another big problem: no 360 degree coverage.

This is mostly a big gift to Bombardier. They will now have a base airframe that is AAR capable and type certified. Given how popular the Global 6500 is becoming for ISR this will help them sell even more. Hopefully we can acquire some 6500 based Pegasus (SIGINT) and HADES (SAR/GMTI ISR) platforms.

The E-7 has reliance and dependence on a manifestly unreliable nation at a time when we are trying to move away from them as a supplier.

While RCAF leadership may be content to be vassals of the nation to the south...

 

[Maxman1]

The E-7 has reliance and dependence on a manifestly unreliable nation at a time when we are trying to move away from them as a supplier.

While RCAF leadership may be content to be vassals of the nation to the south...

Which is why we're currently buying P-8s, HIMARS, F-35s, C-130 upgrade program...

 

[Brad Sallows]

To buy European is to buy from some other country's protected defence industry anyways.

Might as well have our own.

 

[Czech_pivo]

To buy European is to buy from some other country's protected defence industry anyways.

Might as well have our own.

If we have our own, they just might be upgraded or replaced more often then every 25-45yrs......

 

[dapaterson]

Which is why we're currently buying P-8s, HIMARS, F-35s, C-130 upgrade program...

A good reason to diversify our sources of supply.

 

[ytz]

The E-7 has reliance and dependence on a manifestly unreliable nation at a time when we are trying to move away from them as a supplier.

While RCAF leadership may be content to be vassals of the nation to the south...

The RCAF just wants what two of its allies already have and what a third might still get.

At least now we will have a real competition on our hands as opposed to a default winner. The L3 Phoenix should be highly competitive with the E-7 once you add AAR.

 

[Ludoc]

A cordless drill, a garden hose, a funnel, a dowel and a couple rolls of duct tape. Done.

 

[PrairieFella]

With luck and a little planning, maybe they'll slot in some mortar carriers and MSHORADs and ATGM carriers.

Mortar carriers are coming as part of IFM. Sure they arent spelled out as being ACSV mounted but I can guarantee you thats where any system goes.

 

[FJAG]

Mortar carriers are coming as part of IFM. Sure they arent spelled out as being ACSV mounted but I can guarantee you thats where any system goes.

They certainly should. IFM is still unfunded and in RFI, to the best of my knowledge. I tend not to count my chickens albeit with GDLS ACSV and a Swedish NEMO one is adequately staying aways from Yankee kit. So odds are better.

 

[Maxman1]

A good reason to diversify our sources of supply.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face is not sound policy.

We should not be buying subpar kit that our allies don't use just because "America bad".

 

[PrairieFella]

Cutting off your nose to spite your face is not sound policy.

We should not be buying subpar kit that our allies don't use just because "America bad".

Subpar or different? Tgere are plenty of examples where the euro kit is just as good or better than what the Americans offer. There is nothing wrong with diversifying away when possible as the Americans are no longer reliable.

 

[Rainbow1910]

What? No.

The E-7 has everything we want. Till now, no other airframe had AAR (which will be mandatory for AEWC). Now there's a possibility that at least one other competitor will have AAR: the L3 Phoenix.

I am not sure the Globaleye can fit the roof mounted receptacle with the radar it has. And the Globaleye still has another big problem: no 360 degree coverage.

This is mostly a big gift to Bombardier. They will now have a base airframe that is AAR capable and type certified. Given how popular the Global 6500 is becoming for ISR this will help them sell even more. Hopefully we can acquire some 6500 based Pegasus (SIGINT) and HADES (SAR/GMTI ISR) platforms.

Given the domestic issues E-7 has within the US itself and with NATO/South Korea moving away from the platform for Global based derivatives and what Carney promised within his campaign around a domestic Canadian AEW&C platform, I think E-7 can be pretty handily dismissed from the competition. Between L3 Harris's bid and Saab's bid, I think the deck is fairly heavily stacked against L3 Harris given Saab has promised setting up GlobalEye conversion directly within Canada and international demand for that platform is steadily rising over time.

 

[Maxman1]

Subpar or different? Tgere are plenty of examples where the euro kit is just as good or better than what the Americans offer. There is nothing wrong with diversifying away when possible as the Americans are no longer reliable.

And plenty of examples where the American option is legitimately the better choice, or effectively only choice.

 

[ytz]

Given the domestic issues E-7 has within the US itself and with NATO/South Korea moving away from the platform for Global based derivatives and what Carney promised within his campaign around a domestic Canadian AEW&C platform, I think E-7 can be pretty handily dismissed from the competition. Between L3 Harris's bid and Saab's bid, I think the deck is fairly heavily stacked against L3 Harris given Saab has promised setting up GlobalEye conversion directly within Canada and international demand for that platform is steadily rising over time.

I know people on that project. I have seen zero indication they are getting political pressure to sole source. So we'll see....

What they were concerned about was:

1) Phoenix is a paper airplane until L3 delivers to ROKAF. The radar is mature. The airplane is mature. The combination has never been done before.

2) Only the E-7 would meet two important mandatories (AAR + 360 coverage). Globaleye fails both of those. Phoenix fails one of those. If the AAR work is done in time that the ROKAF Phoenix can be certified on the AAR capable frame, it becomes fully compliant with their mandatories. And there's real competition.

So I definitely don't see how "the deck is fairly heavily stacked against L3 Harris". I think the AAR work puts them possibly in the lead. As for conversion, it's just not a big deal. L3 can do that work in Canada too. The ability to fit the radar is going to be necessary for maintenance anyway. So any bidder will have to offer that capability as part of their sustainment plan.