Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[Kirkhill]

It takes about 6 months to train a good soldier. Maybe a little longer for a Junior Officer - say 8 months or so.

With well selected, trained, and hardened Officers and troops you can train up sections, platoons, companies and battalions in about the next 6 months.

If you have poorly trained basic material, you'll usually fail in any attempt to build an effective larger sized force.

And how long to find and train GOCs?

 

[mariomike]

By 1945 all were experienced professionals.
The real question is, in my opinion, how quickly can we learn to adapt.

The most important lesson of mobilizing for WW II was "how to mobilize".

Another question might be, how quickly could Canada's Homefront learn to adapt .

Investigation seems to show that having one's home demolished is most damaging to morale. People seem to mind it more than having their friends or even relatives killed. There seems to be little doubt that this would break the spirit of the people.

 

[Eaglelord17]

How dare you question the sacred practice of promote and post for our worst people. There's no way that we could of foreseen that biting us in the butt! None i say!!

Almost as though attrition has robbed the CAF of the people who likely would have made the best higher level troops and are instead left with much of the dregs.

 

[dapaterson]

Almost as though attrition has robbed the CAF of the people who likely would have made the best higher level troops and are instead left with much of the dregs.

Nope.

CAF needs more attrition, earlier, to get rid of the chuds at the beginning. That suggests much fewer senior ranks. And a more robust training system, which in turn is by design able to surge.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Nope.

CAF needs more attrition, earlier, to get rid of the chuds at the beginning. That suggests much fewer senior ranks. And a more robust training system, which in turn is by design able to surge.

More selective attrition. Currently you lose a lot of the best and brightest who will succeed no matter where they go. Many that are left are those that failed civvy side and have no where else to go.

 

[dapaterson]

More selective attrition. Currently you lose a lot of the best and brightest who will succeed no matter where they go. Many that are left are those that failed civvy side and have no where else to go.

And some of that attrition is driven by... the chuds above / alongside them.

Or that cold be seen as a feature, not a bug. Figure out how to retain those folks as they migrate from the CAF to industry, in the Reserve, and maybe even try to lure them back into senior positions.

So, for example, a guy who leaves the Reg F a Captain, stays active class A, deploys a couple times, builds a successful civilian career... how can the CAF lure him back to be a GOFO and exploit his experience?

 

[childs56]

I don't disagree. But they might have the same problem we have in space where nobody above LCOL has operational experience in the domain (cyber) for them.

Why is it that only LCol and above have operational experience in those roles?

Will agree that it's malpractice that a lot of the CAF don't understand that these are distinct domains and simply treat it as a supporting activity. Reflected in some of the discussion here.

The reason for it simply put is if the people doing the job (except a handful) does not know the capability, then how do you expect all the others in the Combined armed battle to understand.

NTK/RTK. Nobody is getting a full LVL III brief on things outside their dayjob normally. Obviously the brief you as Comd of 3 CSD is going to be different from what you get as DCOMD 1 CAD.

And I will say to their credit, both the Wing and Div Cdrs don't actually think their personal situations are ideal. Your first space posting shouldn't normally be as the JFSCC/Div Comd.

Was there not discussion that one could hire the CEO of Apple to run the show and things would be good to go.

To that end, both of them have pushed hard for professionalization of CAF Space and succession plans so that nobody like them fills those jobs in the future. That's as good as one can ask for with a commander.

The mere fact that they have to push hard for this says the military is not serious in its actual endeavors, no matter how hard the Commander pushes the issue.
Kind of like putting a Pilot in charge of the UAV program, then expecting them to tell you which one you need to buy the next week. When there is fifteen different options all with their own merit. The only UAV you have flown was the micro machine helicopter you got for Christmas one year as a kid.

If we’re going to have somewhere between 1/3 and 1/5 of the fighting army deployed to Latvia for the long haul, then we’ve got to make troops want multiple tours, the way they craved time in Lahr and Baden. There has to be some way to make tax free service in Eastern Europe, with no one shooting at you, atttractive. Hell, myself and my peers lined up around the block for trips to the Balkans, and back then we had to pay income tax.

Some kind of reverse Pony Express, where we swap out the riders (the senior officers that want to ‘make their mark’) and keep the same horses (the troops that remain in the line units for the bulk of their career) is just a recipe to burn out the army quickly.

That is interesting. I wonder if they are having the Troops paint the rocks white today, move them to the other side of the road. Only to paint them red tomorrow and move them back.
I wonder if the COC is treating the Men and women like crap. Not letting them proper time off. Couple that with lack of equipment, spare parts and more then likely other resources such as ammo. It does not take long to figure out why problems might arise from the Soldiers.

 

[ytz]

Why is it that only LCol and above have operational experience in those roles?

You mean LCOL and below. And it's largely because the domains are somewhat new and especially new for the CAF. So the only people who have experience are the younger folks who went out of their way to develop those skills. I wouldn't expect COLs and GOFOs who joined in the 90s when the internet was barely a thing to have had the chance to gain experience in space or cyber.

The mere fact that they have to push hard for this says the military is not serious in its actual endeavors, no matter how hard the Commander pushes the issue.

The mere fact that they have to push hard for this says the military is not serious in its actual endeavors, no matter how hard the Commander pushes the issue.

It's just normal with new ideas and large organizations. This doesn't just happen in the CAF or even just in the government. There's young people in every company trying to explain to new tech to the boss. What matters is receptivity to the message. And it was heartening to me that my Wing Commander and Division Commander are strong proponents for the ideas we put forward. A welcome change from many other commands in my career.

 

[ytz]

But Computers and Digital are nothing new, yet the COS Digital Services Group is somehow an Infantry officer.

Bit confused. DSG is led by ADM(DS) a civilian.

The Cyber Force Commander double hatted as the Joint Force Cyber Component Commander is MGEN Parker. He's a Sig O.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

And some of that attrition is driven by... the chuds above / alongside them.

Or that cold be seen as a feature, not a bug. Figure out how to retain those folks as they migrate from the CAF to industry, in the Reserve, and maybe even try to lure them back into senior positions.

So, for example, a guy who leaves the Reg F a Captain, stays active class A, deploys a couple times, builds a successful civilian career... how can the CAF lure him back to be a GOFO and exploit his experience?

Just as long as he is not a Victoria Real Estate agent…

 

[dapaterson]

Bit confused. DSG is led by ADM(DS) a civilian.

The Cyber Force Commander double hatted as the Joint Force Cyber Component Commander is MGEN Parker. He's a Sig O.

ADM DS is a civilian (retired Armoured corps BGen).

COS DSG (MGen) is an Infantry Officer.

Chief of Digital Transformation (MGen) is a Log O.

 

[FJAG]

It's long past time that the GOFO Corps be professionalized.

Before they get there we send them to Toronto for a year and maybe a master's program somewhere. Are you suggesting that time could be better spent?

 

[FJAG]

So, for example, a guy who leaves the Reg F a Captain, stays active class A, deploys a couple times, builds a successful civilian career... how can the CAF lure him back to be a GOFO and exploit his experience?

It can be done with GOFOs. Pitzul left the office of the JAG as a LCol to go work at NS Justice. He was brought back as a BGen to be JAG and later promoted to MGen.

 

[childs56]

You mean LCOL and below.

LCOL = Low Cost of Living
Canadian abbreviation for Lieutenant-Colonel is LCol or Lt.-Col depending on who is writing it. Unless there is an update to the abbreviations listing.

[td][/td]

And it's largely because the domains are somewhat new and especially new for the CAF. So the only people who have experience are the younger folks who went out of their way to develop those skills. I wouldn't expect COLs and GOFOs who joined in the 90s when the internet was barely a thing to have had the chance to gain experience in space or cyber.

So promote the ones who have the experience quickly. As in tomorrow, if the person in charge does not know the actual job then they become the 2ic or below. Where the person who knows the job becomes the Commander.

It's just normal with new ideas and large organizations. This doesn't just happen in the CAF or even just in the government. There's young people in every company trying to explain to new tech to the boss. What matters is receptivity to the message. And it was heartening to me that my Wing Commander and Division Commander are strong proponents for the ideas we put forward. A welcome change from many other commands in my career.

That is pretty awesome that they see the need and are engaged in the future of the program. Not something we see often.

 

[dapaterson]

It can be done with GOFOs. Pitzul left the office of the JAG as a LCol to go work at NS Justice. He was brought back as a BGen to be JAG and later promoted to MGen.

JAG are specialist officers.

We need to do it with GSOs.

 

[ytz]

ADM DS is a civilian (retired Armoured corps BGen).

COS DSG (MGen) is an Infantry Officer.

Chief of Digital Transformation (MGen) is a Log O.

Got it. I see your point. Guess we're lucky the JFCCC is actually a Sig.

Though I will say. Aren't COS positions at command level outsiders?

But yeah nuts that ADM(DS) and the CDT didn't spend most of their careers in IT.

 

[FJAG]

JAG are specialist officers.

We need to do it with GSOs.

Your comment made me think that I really know little to nothing about the GOFO selection/appointment process. So I gave it about 45 seconds of intense research including this:

General Officers and Flag Officers - Canada.ca

General and Flag Officers of the Canadian Armed Forces work closely with senior Defence Team executives to ensure Canada is strong at home, secure in North America, and engaged in the world.

www.canada.ca

and this:

CAF improves promotion selection process, beginning with General and Flag Officers - Canada.ca

This process allows the CAF to evolve its appointment to command and promotion processes in order to be more inclusive and to ensure that those who are selected to lead truly embody CAF values.

www.canada.ca

Which led me to the conclusion that its a pretty loosey-goosey process tied up in bureaucratese. I know. I know. Scoresheets based on "assessments" always lead to a perfect result.

OTOH, I'm a fan of gut-feel that's based on watching how folks behave in a crisis. Which, of course, has its own drawbacks.

 

[Halifax Tar]

ADM DS is a civilian (retired Armoured corps BGen).

COS DSG (MGen) is an Infantry Officer.

Chief of Digital Transformation (MGen) is a Log O.

Why do we do this ? We do it at the NCM level too at the CWO/CPO1 level...

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Why do we do this ? We do it at the NCM level too at the CWO/CPO1 level...

It's called jobs for the boys. GOFO rank basically means you get setup with some sort of atta boy position after you retire/leave. It's all self-licking ice cream cone jobs though.

There isn't really a career path open to these people once their Military careers are over. They are generally too far gone to learn a new industry and the private sector is such a massive divergence from what they are familiar with.

Even my industry, which is considered very open to Military Vets, would never hire senior members for anything. They like Corporals and Captains because they are young enough that they can turn them in to something useful.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It's called jobs for the boys. GOFO rank basically means you get setup with some sort of atta boy position after you retire/leave. It's all self-licking ice cream cone jobs though.

There isn't really a career path open to these people once their Military careers are over. They are generally too far gone to learn a new industry and the private sector is such a massive divergence from what they are familiar with.

Even my industry, which is considered very open to Military Vets, would never hire senior members for anything. They like Corporals and Captains because they are young enough that they can turn them in to something useful.

My question is more about why we seem to fit people into roles they, on the surface, don't seem to be the right fit for.

We seem to think that our GO/FOs and CPO1/CWOs are interchangeable and their career built technical and tactical expertise can translate.