A Deeply Fractured US

[ytz]

Got it. So would this same list be blacklisting schools for other graduate studies too? No more Space Force or Air Force going to MIT, no more officers doing a masters in International Relations at Harvard? No military doctors doing advanced studies at Johns Hopkins?

I would expect so. Those are all funded education programs. Let's see how they refine guidance going forward. But you can see the reaction from most military online. Should be noted too that a lot of these schools do give preference to military and veterans.

When I went to NPS, my USN classmates told me they were given exactly two options for anybody that did Mechanical Engineering as a funded postgrad: NPS or MIT. The US military has a long tradition of ensuring that its officers are well educated. Guess that will be ending....

 

[brihard]

I would expect so. Those are all funded education programs. Let's see how they refine guidance going forward. But you can see the reaction from most military online. Should be noted too that a lot of these schools do give preference to military and veterans.

When I went to NPS, my USN classmates told me they were given exactly two options for anybody that did Mechanical Engineering as a funded postgrad: NPS or MIT. The US military has a long tradition of ensuring that its officers are well educated. Guess that will be ending....

Sorry, my education is all in basket weaving. Google Fu tells me NPS is Naval Postgraduate School? If you don’t mind me asking what did you take?

I’m out of CAF now but both respectful and envious of the funded education options. I’m doing my master’s now and there’s a CAF officer whose job for two years is to complete the same program. I’d do shameful things for an opportunity like that, instead of booking it from work to class once a week and juggling a toddler during readings in the evening.

 

[ytz]

If you don’t mind me asking what did you take?

Two engineering masters (Mech Eng and Astro). And three post grad certificates there. Was a sponsored PG for the first Masters. The Americans were kind enough to help me do more.

And my kid was born down there just months after I go there. So we were juggling a kid in the evenings too. I literally took her in on a stroller while dressed in 3Bs for a midterm.

The quality of education and the instructors I had at NPS were unmatched. I couldn't see any school in Canada offering that kind of experience. Missile aerodynamics was taught by an 80+ yr old prof that was an aerodynamicist on the Apollo program. Imagine having this guy as an instructor. Zero computer component in that class. Final exam was two parallel lines with an arrow in the middle. "Derive the full Bernoulli."

Will add too. That the school allowed a lot of exposure to military topics to prepare direct application. One of my remote sensing homework assignments was: Use STK to model this hostile nation ISR constellation and then figure out how to manoeuvre this Carrier Strike Group from A to B without being detected. Several of my space classmates were Marines going to be posted as Space Operations Advisors in the 3 shop of a Marine Division after graduation so this kind of stuff was highly relevant.

And of top of all that, got to do stuff like a climate change and cleantech certificate with scientists from NREL as instructors. Half the guys doing theses in that program did it on cleantech motivated by their experience in Afghanistan and Iraq knowing how many casualties happened due to fuel logistic. Must be the woke stuff that the administration doesn't like.

 

[brihard]

Ok yeah, looks like this is probably going to be more broadly applicable. What a self-defeating move by DoD.

https://www.cnn.com/2026/02/13/politics/us-military-top-universities-tuition-assistance

 

[FJAG]

I don't think it would affect the JPME program. If you read the email in the X post it is specifically from the JAG Recruiting Office about candidates for the FLEP/UFLEP (Funded/Unfunded Legal Education Programs).

I guess the US JAG doesn't want law students going to law schools that might question the legality of some of the recent actions of the US Administration.

I don't see this affecting any other US military educational programs.

The email is within JAG but refers to a Dept of War direction. Interestingly I read the caution going to the UFLEP program people as "friendly advice" warning them of the poisoned atmosphere and the possibility that their self funded schooling may not be recognized by DOD down the road.

I think the OJAG is as aghast at this as anyone (except maybe the MAGA/Trumpists that exist in all organizations down there)

 

[Brad Sallows]

Gee I wonder why a navy might want to think about how sea level rise could impact operations.

2 to 3 millimetres per year? Yeah, that seriously requires inclusion in every estimate.

I can guess the US is thumbs-downing elite law schools for military prospects because of the ideological capture to which they have been subjected.

[Add: More here and here about the scope and breadth.]

 

[ytz]

2 to 3 millimetres per year?

Cause global averages are 1:1 applicable to local conditions everywhere right? Surely, it might not act as threat accelerant to national security concerns like climate refugee migration, disaster impact on critical infrastructure or resource competition right? No reason to have senior officers are GOFOs educated on that right?

You're proving the point.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Cause global averages are 1:1 applicable to local conditions everywhere right?

You're proving the point.

Cause global mins and maxes are not really that widely distributed around that value. Millimeters are chickenfeed. You're chasing a ridiculous piece of evidence. The obvious weakness of the policy is that it constrains US military professional education, which arguably improves recruitment and performance while serving. Focus on that, maybe?

Meanwhile, it's a good thing Canada has such a laser-like focus on serious post-grad PME for its officers.

 

[ytz]

Meanwhile, it's a good thing Canada has such a laser-like focus on serious post-grad PME for its officers.

Guessing you haven't seen a textbook, let alone a staff college curriculum in decades.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Guessing you haven't seen a textbook, let alone a staff college curriculum in decades.

I'm thinking of all the bitching on threads here, which often produces two main and somewhat opposed streams of thought: that "war studies" is a cop-out not held in high esteem by some; and "do we really need university-educated officers?" for some others. I suppose you and I would fall into the former group. My impression - stipulated, it could be mistaken - is that Canada has its work cut out for it to even reach the pre-Trump levels of post-grad education met by the US military, which, even if particular doors are closed, will still continue to seek post-grad education. If only the energy spent fretting about the US could be channeled into productive advocacy to improve our own back yard.

 

[FJAG]

Meanwhile, it's a good thing Canada has such a laser-like focus on serious post-grad PME for its officers.

Interestingly when I applied for law school the application process looked for a broad diversity of pre-law education as preferred. It wasn't just humanities, it extended to hard sciences, politics and theoretical studies. The belief was that a broad education developed the critical thinking necessary for a proper foundation of a legal education.

There is no doubt that many universities cater to what many consider basket weaving 101 courses. That's because in any organization truly dedicated to education you want to explore the boundaries. MAGA doesn't want that. Conservatism is also an adjective describing people who do not want to see change. It's always interesting to see various conservative cultures pick the spot in human evolution that they want to stop progressing at.

If conservatives truly want to have critical thinking blossom then get rid of all religious based private Grade 1-12 education. But Oh! No! that would put paid to most of the Charter schools publicly funded down south.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If conservatives truly want to have critical thinking blossom then get rid of all religious based private Grade 1-12 education. But Oh! No! that would put paid to most of the Charter schools publicly funded down south.

Ridiculous. Public schools are as capable of delivering shoddy education, especially in the US. So are "grievance studies" programs. There is a huge gulf between those and traditional humanities.

Religious belief and education aren't useful predictors of ability. My working life was spent among people with credentials in hard sciences and engineering (math, physics, comp sci, EE, eng phys, etc). To put it in Canadian context, some had worked for luminary companies such as MDA and MPR at this end of the country. Some of the best were also deeply religious, and/or had religious education, and/or had kids in private schools or even home-schooled. Ability will out; what matters is 11-12 - particularly 12 as the launch point into post-sec - and whether or not the post-secondary education is crippled by political activism.

 

[ytz]

I'm thinking of all the bitching on threads here, which often produces two main and somewhat opposed streams of thought: that "war studies" is a cop-out not held in high esteem by some; and "do we really need university-educated officers?" for some others. I suppose you and I would fall into the former group. My impression - stipulated, it could be mistaken - is that Canada has its work cut out for it to even reach the pre-Trump levels of post-grad education met by the US military,

You are massively misunderstanding what the criticism is.

What people complain about is that those folks get the same SCRIT points as everybody else. But instead of actually doing a full load of classes like any normal grad student, half their credits are from CFC. That MA has de facto become a way to make sure a lot of operator trades have a Master's degree on their resume so they don't look like total dullards. Debatable whether that is fair or not.

My American colleagues would actually get more SCRIT points for their STEM degrees or for attending more prestigious schools on recognized programs (like a Fulbright or Rhodes Scholar). I got the same points (1 pt) for my two STEM degrees as my buddy who did a part time MA at Carleton. And an even bigger complaint is Second Language is worth 4 pts on the SCRIT. Going to NPS actually set me back getting promoted. But it was a worthwhile experience for me and I came home with a skillset which the CAF suddenly found useful in setting up a space component.

which, even if particular doors are closed, will still continue to seek post-grad education. If only the energy spent fretting about the US could be channeled into productive advocacy to improve our own back yard.

This is a thread on the US in a forum about military matters. I would assume discussion about what is happening to their military is topical.

You can go roam US Military forums and you will see tons of criticism of this policy from serving personnel and veterans too. Of course, there's always enlisted folks who think any education is pointless. But by and large this model of sending their officers and generals to do graduate education at good schools has served them well for decades. It's ensured that the US military has become and remains the premier fighting force on the planet.

You know where you see the government demanding that military officers and senior bureaucrats only attend party approved schools? Authoritarian regimes like China.

I am willing to bet that a Trump U educated Colonel or General will not do better that a supposedly woke Yale graduate.

 

[FJAG]

Ability will out; what matters is 11-12 - particularly 12 as the launch point into post-sec - and whether or not the post-secondary education is crippled by political activism.

Ability will not out if its been formed by a decade of propaganda. Yes some may escape their indoctrination, most will succumb to it.

Primary and secondary education is the foundation of beliefs. That's where the guardrails need to be. Once they get to post-secondary then they will be able to properly analyze what is relevant and what is bull shit.

Post-secondary education isn't crippled by political activism. The fact is conservative political activism exists just as much as the political activism that the conservatives despise. If there wasn't conservative activism then guys like Charlie Kirk would have been out of a job. Let's call a spade a spade. The problem isn't that there is political activism in universities; the problem is that it's political activism that opposes the Right.

 

[ytz]

A whole bunch of Ivy League schools in the US actually give preference to serving military and veterans. That perspective is highly valued. If you're worried about "woke", removing the guy/gal who can talk about real life experiences is not going to help achieve your goals.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

You know where you see the government demanding that military officers and senior bureaucrats only attend party approved schools? Authoritarian regimes like China.

I think you should also look at France and the UK. In France, if you wish to become a senior bureaucrat, you have to go to specific universities, depending on the department you wish to work in. It's not quite as clear for England, but if you wish to make it to secretary or under-secretary level, you'd better have gotten a first (or at max a second) from Oxford or Cambridge. You get a first from LSU? Forget it, they don't think LSU is a university.

 

[ytz]

I’m out of CAF now but both respectful and envious of the funded education options. I’m doing my master’s now and there’s a CAF officer whose job for two years is to complete the same program. I’d do shameful things for an opportunity like that, instead of booking it from work to class once a week and juggling a toddler during readings in the evening.

One of my criticisms of our sponsored education programs is that we aren't actually strict on workload, content, etc. Everything depends on the sponsor. Mine simply told me learn xyz for your job. So I made sure I covered those classes and then looked at what else I could do and maximized the opportunity. I could have easily slacked off and had half the workload. The Americans had detailed matrices of all the courses they had to take to get their advanced qual code. Best part, the CAF never even gave me the qual code for Space. So even more I only have the weapons code I was sent for. They didn't know how to process a program not done at RMC. I do think the CAF needs to do better job both educating officers and understanding how to leverage that education. We suck at both right now.

 

[ytz]

I think you should also look at France and the UK. In France, if you wish to become a senior bureaucrat, you have to go to specific universities, depending on the department you wish to work in. It's not quite as clear for England, but if you wish to make it to secretary or under-secretary level, you'd better have gotten a first (or at max a second) from Oxford or Cambridge. You get a first from LSU? Forget it, they don't think LSU is a university.

That's less about ideological control than that just maintaining old fashioned elitism though. How many senior bureaucrats or GOFOs do we have in Canada who weren't educated at a T20 school or RMC?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

RMC is a self imposed facility, not to be confused with a Canadian top academic institution. Besides, RMC can't do it on its own and has to rely on Queen's for many programs.

 

[ytz]

There is no doubt that many universities cater to what many consider basket weaving 101 courses. That's because in any organization truly dedicated to education you want to explore the boundaries. MAGA doesn't want that.

There's also a certain hypocrisy at play. The same folks crying about these schools being "woke" will do anything to get their own kids in. And the new complain is that Asians are ruining top schools by being too competitive. White parents will actually move out if too many high scoring Asians move into a neighbourhood. Almost like their real complaint is not about woke ideology, but that it doesn't benefit them. They want DEI for upper class whites.

I somehow doubt that if Brad's kid got into Harvard or Yale, he'd be telling them not to go because it's too woke.