Off Grid Homesteading

[IKnowNothing]

Again I can't highlight enough the value of investigating woodlot options. One I toured years ago in Pembrooke area of s. Ontario was paying over $250,000 LESS tax due to the woodlot designation due to being a large area of forested land in the middle of cottages....municipality by default assessed everything as recreational tax vs. agriculture.

If I can get my plan done and signed off I should be able to drop my taxes from ~1400 to closer to $100/year.

Unfortunately the rules and eligibility vary a lot by province but conservation, long term investment, recreation and/or inter-generational transfers are not unheard of reasons of managing a woodlot...it's not just logging or may not involve logging at all.

Another thing I've been dancing with the idea of is conservation easements + registering a management plan. Massive tax advantages

 

[foresterab]

I'm very hesitant on conservation easements....while many are okay...some are permanent injunctions on the property that may affect things down the road. Or inadvertently trigger additional rules that normally wouldn't be involved...

But a few examples just to show how widely they vary..

• New York State issues conservation easements to encourage forested land due to a) improved water collection/retention for cities and b) anti-flood measures. However they generally prevent any clearing of the lands
• Ducks Unlimited conservations easements don't change title of the land but does restrict development. Probably one of the "softest" programs on the landowner especially in the prairies.
• Lands donated in trust - a really big political football but landowners will sometimes offer lands in trust for NGO groups to build up a protected area. Pay attention to the fine print as I know people that donated land for park expansion....only to have it sold by the gov't to fund other land purchases. Was a breach of contract and sale was revoked and lands returned to original owners.
• Identification of a Species at Risk under Federal SARA on private land may trigger federal laws/conservation issues. Species at Risk Act: information note for landowners - Canada.ca Be very careful what you list as being protected....
• Ontario Conservation Land Tax Incentive Program. Land size and significance of lands are the big drivers...but it's also an annual application processes to maintain.

Regardless of your personal and/or family decisions on this aspect there are both legal and financial aspects to consider both for today and future decisions. For many it doesn't matter...but for others it may. Be prepared for a degree of ongoing certification and/or auditing if you decide to go down this line of thinking as each program differs.

Hope this helps,
foresterab

 

[Genetk44]

I was looking at land in the area between Parry Sound and North Bay and even a bit north of Lake Nipissing just before covid hit. My preferred requirements were…unorganized territory, mainly wooded with some water feature such as wetland,pond or stream with some sort of nearby secondary road access. Unfortunately age and health issues finally caught up with me.

 

[IKnowNothing]

I'm very hesitant on conservation easements....while many are okay...some are permanent injunctions on the property that may affect things down the road. Or inadvertently trigger additional rules that normally wouldn't be involved...

This is the exact double sword we're considering- negotiating an easement that allows continued agricultural and recreational use (creating a list of allowable future structures, total square footage etc to those uses) while while restricting the land against future development or extractives use.

Ties our hands a bit, but also impairs the value significantly which helps for intergenerational transfers.

 

[foresterab]

You guys should try Northern Ontario. Some real beautiful chunks of land for sometimes in the low 100k range.

Or if you wait longer things like this come up (outside my price range).

https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/28585661/south-lizard-island-near-lake-superior-provincial-park-algoma-near-lake-superior-provincial-park-algoma

Northern Ontario has a ton of great areas....especially if you like isolated .

But now we're getting into the realm of Camp vs. Cottage vs. Chalet and what part of north do you mean?

 

[IKnowNothing]

But now we're getting into the realm of Camp vs. Cottage vs. Chalet and what part of north do you mean?

Cabin - rustic, no utilities, often no insulation
Cottage - fully functioning vacation home, 3 or 4 season
Chalet - a cottage but pretentious

 

[lenaitch]

Cool. I'm envious.

With the price of land in southern Ontario I've been looking at cheaper bushlots that have zoning blocks preventing permitting buildings (a fraction of the price) so I've done a decent amount of research and penciling on what can be done above board but beneath regulatory oversight- but none of that is pertinent to your goals

I assume you have looked at Dignam's website. They used to put out a catalogue that was interesting to look at.

Dignam Land - Land For Sale in Ontario, Canada

Vacant acreage, property, and land for sale in Ontario, BC, PEI, Nova Scotia, Manitoba, Newfoundland, and Saskatchewan

www.dignam.com

 

[lenaitch]

Cabin - rustic, no utilities, often no insulation
Cottage - fully functioning vacation home, 3 or 4 season
Chalet - a cottage but pretentious

I find the nomenclature to be regional.

In southern Ontario, it is a cottage, no matter how plain or fancy it is unless it is clearly a hunt/fish camp. In northern Ontario, the same thing is a camp; doesn't matter if it is a $2Mn mansion. I don't hear 'chalet' too much unless it is adjacent to a ski hill.

 

[lenaitch]

Again I can't highlight enough the value of investigating woodlot options. One I toured years ago in Pembrooke area of s. Ontario was paying over $250,000 LESS tax due to the woodlot designation due to being a large area of forested land in the middle of cottages....municipality by default assessed everything as recreational tax vs. agriculture.

If I can get my plan done and signed off I should be able to drop my taxes from ~1400 to closer to $100/year.

Unfortunately the rules and eligibility vary a lot by province but conservation, long term investment, recreation and/or inter-generational transfers are not unheard of reasons of managing a woodlot...it's not just logging or may not involve logging at all.

I don't know the economics of maple syrup but if the bush is suitable and either you or a tenant can get $7K gross off it, it would be considered agricultural and taxed differently. When we had the hobby farm, we leased out to a tenant cash crop farmer and if I recall, our property taxes on 56 acres was around $1800 in central Ontario. I belief land zoned for agricultural is taxed at 25% of the mil rate.

 

[Remius]

I don't know the economics of maple syrup but if the bush is suitable and either you or a tenant can get $7K gross off it, it would be considered agricultural and taxed differently. When we had the hobby farm, we leased out to a tenant cash crop farmer and if I recall, our property taxes on 56 acres was around $1800 in central Ontario. I belief land zoned for agricultural is taxed at 25% of the mil rate.

The Maple syrup Cartel is very touchy about who sells maple syrup. Making it yourself for own use is one thing. A full fledged operation for profit is another.

We tapped about a hundred trees a year. Enough for friends family and a good personal supply. And doable with the manpower and kit we had.

 

[foresterab]

I find the nomenclature to be regional.

In southern Ontario, it is a cottage, no matter how plain or fancy it is unless it is clearly a hunt/fish camp. In northern Ontario, the same thing is a camp; doesn't matter if it is a $2Mn mansion. I don't hear 'chalet' too much unless it is adjacent to a ski hill.

That's my experience too. They're Cabins in the west...until NW Ontario where they're Camps. Cottages in S. Ontario. Chalets occasionally in NE francophone Ontario but more a Quebec term...and then Cabins again in mid-NB. Chalets out west are all ski hill related and Camps tend to refer to work camps vs. recreation.

Fun ways to try to figure out where someone is from within our great country...like how many beer are in a case? do you drink rye and coke or rye and ginger? What's a sweatshirt called? pint vs. flask?

 

[RangerRay]

That's my experience too. They're Cabins in the west...until NW Ontario where they're Camps. Cottages in S. Ontario. Chalets occasionally in NE francophone Ontario but more a Quebec term...and then Cabins again in mid-NB. Chalets out west are all ski hill related and Camps tend to refer to work camps vs. recreation.

Fun ways to try to figure out where someone is from within our great country...like how many beer are in a case? do you drink rye and coke or rye and ginger? What's a sweatshirt called? pint vs. flask?

In Manitoba, it's "cottage". Could be a unabomber shack, could be a mansion, but it's called a "cottage".

 

[Eaglelord17]

Northern Ontario has a ton of great areas....especially if you like isolated .

But now we're getting into the realm of Camp vs. Cottage vs. Chalet and what part of north do you mean?

I am in the ‘camp’ part of the country. We aren’t rich enough for the fancy cottage folk round here.

 

[IKnowNothing]

I find the nomenclature to be regional.

In southern Ontario, it is a cottage, no matter how plain or fancy it is unless it is clearly a hunt/fish camp. In northern Ontario, the same thing is a camp; doesn't matter if it is a $2Mn mansion. I don't hear 'chalet' too much unless it is adjacent to a ski hill.

Cottage is certainly the dominant term in SW Ontario- but cabin is still used. Generally- the cottage is where you vacation to, the cabin is the warmup / party shack on the back 40.

 

[Halifax Tar]

My personal definitions:

Cottage = An expensive second house on water for Col and up.

Camp = A four season, utility fitted shelter for LCol to 2Lts.

Cabin = Selected seasonal use, may or may not have some utilities for OCDTs and below.

 

[dapaterson]

Cottage: what I want

Camp: What I'll settle for

Cabin: what the realtor is showing me

Cardboard box: what I can afford

 

[Eaglelord17]

Cottage: what I want

Camp: What I'll settle for

Cabin: what the realtor is showing me

Cardboard box: what I can afford

As the father in law puts it, champagne tastes, bog water budget

 

[Cloud Cover]

Root cellar.
Small wind turbines
Deep battery storage
Sun exposed water circulation pipe system for hot water
Sand and gravel filters
Secondary u/g bunker, vented.
Fuel storage, underground, vented.