Continental Defence Corvette

[Czech_pivo]

Perhaps. But we have yards that exist that could, with the design time/long lead items purchase be ready to build the CDC. Davie and Ontario shipyards have the space, perhaps not the workforce. But right now we're adequate.

This was a US guy who did that post so...

Also I'm worried about building out yards that will eventually come up to your heavy cynic being correct. Ontario shipyards goes all in, builds 20 CDC in 12 years then the gov't walks away. That's basically overcapacity. Whereas Seaspan and Iriving will never go away at this point. They are going to be steadily building ships forever. We're 15 years into the NSS and getting results.

If we stay with 15 Rivers at Irving and we decided to build 12-20 CDC's within Canada, then what alternatives are there besides having Davie or Ontario Shipyards build them? Irving has 22+ yrs of work ahead of it in just building the 15 Rivers. By that time HDW will be right about 30yrs old. Just in time to be replaced.

 

[Underway]

If we stay with 15 Rivers at Irving and we decided to build 12-20 CDC's within Canada, then what alternatives are there besides having Davie or Ontario Shipyards build them? Irving has 22+ yrs of work ahead of it in just building the 15 Rivers. By that time HDW will be right about 30yrs old. Just in time to be replaced.

You are not wrong. This is the puzzle. I suspect that you could do multiple blocks at different locations like the UK does. Collect them all in Halifax, and put them together. That way no big investment in anything huge for Ontario Shipyards or Davie as they can easily build blocks.

LMC does the combat systems integration as they won't be doing to much for Rivers. (At this point they are just passing msg's to BAE and LM in the US).

Another option is the "small yard" portion of the NSS does blocks, sends them to Halifax and when they are not doing that they are building the Orca replacements, as those will be below 1000 tons.

 

[Czech_pivo]

You are not wrong. This is the puzzle. I suspect that you could do multiple blocks at different locations like the UK does. Collect them all in Halifax, and put them together. That way no big investment in anything huge for Ontario Shipyards or Davie as they can easily build blocks.

LMC does the combat systems integration as they won't be doing to much for Rivers. (At this point they are just passing msg's to BAE and LM in the US).

Another option is the "small yard" portion of the NSS does blocks, sends them to Halifax and when they are not doing that they are building the Orca replacements, as those will be below 1000 tons.

The other 'wildcard' in this mix is a pair of new some sort of Arctic 'capable' Amphibious Landing Ships. I would imagine that the desire to keep this ship 'in house', meaning the design/build within Canada, who could even be up for building this in say 8 years out from here?

This is much further down the road and just a gleam in someone's eye, but nevertheless it can't be forgotten or swept under the table.

 

[GR66]

Also I'm worried about building out yards that will eventually come up to your heavy cynic being correct. Ontario shipyards goes all in, builds 20 CDC in 12 years then the gov't walks away. That's basically overcapacity. Whereas Seaspan and Iriving will never go away at this point. They are going to be steadily building ships forever. We're 15 years into the NSS and getting results.

What if Ontario Shipyards builds CDC's, Orca replacements and some USV's all of which will require replacement down the road. Maybe together with maintenance work on the CDC's it would be enough for them to have a continuous build program like the larger yards?

 

[suffolkowner]

What if Ontario Shipyards builds CDC's, Orca replacements and some USV's all of which will require replacement down the road. Maybe together with maintenance work on the CDC's it would be enough for them to have a continuous build program like the larger yards?

Davie's not going to like that for sure. With one Polar Ice Breaker, 6 Medium Ice Breaker, and two ferries Im sure they will think they deserve/need more after their modernization effort

 

[DBNSG]

Davie's not going to like that for sure. With one Polar Ice Breaker, 6 Medium Ice Breaker, and two ferries Im sure they will think they deserve/need more after their modernization effort

So spend what has to be spent to replace CN Marines 4 ship fleet with Five and add the two GLAAM proposals from Davie.
That will give Quebec 14 large Hulls to build with probably the same displacement as the Irving 23 Hulls.

 

[GLP4X]

What if Ontario Shipyards builds CDC's, Orca replacements and some USV's all of which will require replacement down the road. Maybe together with maintenance work on the CDC's it would be enough for them to have a continuous build program like the larger yards?

They do have a MOU with Hanwha Ocean "to accelerate the return of large-scale shipbuilding in Ontario and to strengthen Canada’s ability to deliver future naval programs." Pending selection of the KSS-III.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Davie's not going to like that for sure. With one Polar Ice Breaker, 6 Medium Ice Breaker, and two ferries Im sure they will think they deserve/need more after their modernization effort

I'd prefer if Davie actually got around to building something instead of offshoring everything, hoovering up more contracts and marketing themselves as a shipbuilding superpower lol.

 

[dapaterson]

Is there government of Canada policy cover for the CDC? Or is it a CRCN wishlist thing that has no status within the GoC?

 

[suffolkowner]

I'd prefer if Davie actually got around to building something instead of offshoring everything, hoovering up more contracts and marketing themselves as a shipbuilding superpower lol.

right or wrong i feel disappointed that they (had to?) get the Polar Icebreaker started in Finland

 

[KevinB]

Is there government of Canada policy cover for the CDC? Or is it a CRCN wishlist thing that has no status within the GoC?

I suspect there has to be some semblance of support. Maybe not at the funding stage, but looking at what a big Ocean you have - and the desires to be involved in both Atlantic and Pacific - the CDC/LF platform allows (or appears to from my non nautical experience) to offer the GoC another Warship that doesn't have the bill of the River class Destroyers, and allows for the ability to put something somewhere that a River is not needed.

You don't want to have your Sub fleet being all visible over the map - and the 15 Rivers are not just a ways out, but looking at how hard the Halifax's got ridden, the idea of a 2nd Tier Combatant has to be attractive to many (and not just Senior RCN folks who can command more ships)

It appears you are sending AOPS into the Caribbean, and other places where they to me are better suited for the northern oceans.

 

[Baz]

Is there government of Canada policy cover for the CDC? Or is it a CRCN wishlist thing that has no status within the GoC?

I’m wondering if CRCN’s strategy is to sell it at the “defence conferences” and hope that they are able to make it political, to put the pressure onto the government to “expedite “ the PSPC and TB processes.

The problem with that is it makes it personality dependent; will these things have staying power as a project when the CRCN inevitably moves on? Is it public where he’s going? If it’s a lateral (L1) move he’ll make a lot of enemies very quickly if he tries to “take care of the RCN” from his new position. Including, almost certainly, the new CRCN.

 

[Czech_pivo]

They do have a MOU with Hanwha Ocean "to accelerate the return of large-scale shipbuilding in Ontario and to strengthen Canada’s ability to deliver future naval programs." Pending selection of the KSS-III.

And a new tie in with Mohawk College on the training side.
My next door neighbour is a Chem Eng professor at Mohawk and he’s being asked to start to flesh possible new courses.

 

[Underway]

Is there government of Canada policy cover for the CDC? Or is it a CRCN wishlist thing that has no status within the GoC?

Expect an RFI this year or early next.

 

[Underway]

I suspect there has to be some semblance of support. Maybe not at the funding stage, but looking at what a big Ocean you have - and the desires to be involved in both Atlantic and Pacific - the CDC/LF platform allows (or appears to from my non nautical experience) to offer the GoC another Warship that doesn't have the bill of the River class Destroyers, and allows for the ability to put something somewhere that a River is not needed.

You don't want to have your Sub fleet being all visible over the map - and the 15 Rivers are not just a ways out, but looking at how hard the Halifax's got ridden, the idea of a 2nd Tier Combatant has to be attractive to many (and not just Senior RCN folks who can command more ships)

It appears you are sending AOPS into the Caribbean, and other places where they to me are better suited for the northern oceans.

I agree with everything you said. Except the Acronym LF for Light Frigate. But hey you put up with my wax pencil eating comments about Land Forces all the time so what's a little acronym errors between friends! Good chance these come in at about 3000+ tons, which is about the bottom end for a proper frigate.

I prefer the more modern definition of a frigate though, Destroyer: excels in most areas of warfare (AAW, C3ISR, ASuW, ASW), Frigate: excels in one area of warfare (usualy ASW or AAW) with all round self defense capability. Corvette: self defence mainly or specialized tasks (Russia has ASuW focused Corvettes for example).

If the CDC has "the fight of a frigate" then you can expect at least one very good ASW sensor, self defence AAW, electronic warfare defence capability, and ability to take anti-shipping missiles.

 

[Baz]

Expect an RFI this year or early next.

Doesn't really answer the asked question. It is telling that, to my knowledge, the GoC (including the minister) has not weighed in, nor have the necessary policy steps been started to get TB approval.

A lot of the press coverage says something akin to "the CRCN wants..." Our system is (thankfully) not set up to respond to what one L1 "wants." It responds to what the people of Canada, through their elected officials, decide the nation needs. Hence the requirement to prove to TB that the requirement matches the policy (disfunctional as the process currently is, the intention is correct).

One of the sayings I've picked up somewhere along the way: "if you tell the military you have a large pot of gold for them to spend, everything suddenly becomes gold plated."

Time will tell whether this vision has staying power. I actually hope it does, because even though I may not agree with the RCN's priorities (as I understand them), I think this is an important step towards a well rounded mid-tier Navy.

15 River Class, all in the same config, I'm not as sure about anymore.

 

[YZT580]

And a new tie in with Mohawk College on the training side.
My next door neighbour is a Chem Eng professor at Mohawk and he’s being asked to start to flesh possible new courses.

from the news here, Mohawk has about a dozen or more students doing OJT in Port Weller as we speak and this is not the first lot.

 

[GR66]

15 River Class, all in the same config, I'm not as sure about anymore.

Curious to know what your thoughts are on this.

 

[Baz]

Curious to know what your thoughts are on this.

Firstly, define what the policy is wrt the RCN’s focus on “Canada first.”

Secondly, define (properly) the need for a Canadian Task Group and what effects that formation will deliver.

Based on those two things, define how many task groups we need and can afford.

If the number is lower, lower the number of River class.

However, in all that, determine if there is a need for an “Area Air Defense and C2 enhanced” ship to support the effects the task group requires. If so, plan either a different class (like the RAN and RN) or a modified flight, to include those capabilities, sacrificing what needs to be sacrificed. Adjust numbers accordingly.

To be clear I agree with CRCN that there is a huge opportunity here, including making the stretched out RCD acquisition a bonus. Get a parallel project put “cheaper” hulls in the water and get sailors to sea to rebuild experience and numbers. Ride the ships hard enough and slow down the build rate as it progresses and the “boom or bust” for those goes away on it’s own. Use the breathing room to determine what Canada’s, and the RCN’s, role in the world should be, and adjust the later RCDs accordingly.

But if he doesn’t get cross party GoC and institutional buy in there is a big chance his ideas disappear with him.