The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Furniture]

I’m worried you’re just going to end up with another GDLS, Irving type situation with a Saab Aerospace plant. The RCAF flying Gripens into the 2090’s…

I'm hoping we end up with that sort of situation, where we have an established maker, with lots of well-paid Canadian jobs, so that the GoC buys more kit more often.

The alternative is a boom/bust cycle of buying cool kit, then running it well past the best before date, because there is no political cost to doing that. If we have a maker, and the orders run out, there are lots of jobs on the line and a big political cost to letting those jobs go. Hence the CAs use of the LAV platform, and the GoC not seeming to be interested in cutting the numbers of RCDs.

 

[Altair]

If Canada had Gripens already, I would not be the negative nelly that I am on it.

But let’s be honest it is a near orphan aircraft, (and while we know the RCAF tends to love get stuck with orphans) it really isn’t a good option.

Yes, of course.

Other nations fly 4th gen fighters, peachy. Canada flies 4th gen fighters, disaster .

Other nations have dual fighter fleets, peachy. Canada flies dual fighter fleets, disaster.

I dont buy it.

@Good2Golf You must see a lot more in Saab than I do, frankly I would be much more interested in wooing BAE, and also shoving money at Canadian Aerospace to join GCAP.

I’m worried you’re just going to end up with another GDLS, Irving type situation with a Saab Aerospace plant. The RCAF flying Gripens into the 2090’s…

SAAB/Sweden isnt going to fly the Gripen E into the 2090s. Thats why im so pro Gripen. Sweden doesnt sit on its hands for generations ,they take their defense seriously.

They will drag Canada along and Canada will want to keep up for the ongoing jobs and industrial benefits.

Again, i look at the LAV and GDLS in london. The LAV series being the one program we dont let gather dust.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

With all this talk about the F-35 vs Gripen E/F I thought I would add this comparison chart comparing the F-35 vs Gripen C/D. The Gripen E/F has newer engines with 25% more thrust, a new AESA radar, newer avionics and an IRST system.

GlobalMilitary.net

Tracking world military forces through open-source intelligence

www.globalmilitary.net

 

[suffolkowner]

Internal - F35

External - comparable

Ferry - Gripen.

Considering Gripen doesnt really need to worry about stealth, i dont think tossing tanks on them matters that much, but i'll let the airheads speak to that one.

The question isnt whether you can slap tanks on a Gripem its what it can do with them on.

 

[Good2Golf]

@Good2Golf You must see a lot more in Saab than I do, frankly I would be much more interested in wooing BAE, and also shoving money at Canadian Aerospace to join GCAP.

I’m worried you’re just going to end up with another GDLS, Irving type situation with a Saab Aerospace plant. The RCAF flying Gripens into the 2090’s…

Saab as a path to Canada’s increased productivity and collaboration with Europe to bolster its own aerospace capacity with trusted partner nations for decades, not the 1st order capability of the Gripen flying out of YOD, YBG, etc.

 

[KevinB]

Saab as a path to Canada’s increased productivity and collaboration with Europe to bolster its own aerospace capacity with trusted partner nations for decades, not the 1st order capability of the Gripen flying out of YOD, YBG, etc.

Well I wish you luck, I think there are much better horses in Europe for Canada to bet on.

 

[Altair]

Well I wish you luck, I think there are much better horses in Europe for Canada to bet on.

Name a company willing to offer what SAAB is.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Well I wish you luck, I think there are much better horses in Europe for Canada to bet on.

If its Germany, Spain and Sweden - and maybe throw in Poland, because I think that that they can be a reliable Ally going forward - then I think that could be a viable consortium. Otherwise, GCAP all the way baby.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Name a company willing to offer what SAAB is.

If it sounds too good to be true.....

 

[Good2Golf]

Well I wish you luck, I think there are much better horses in Europe for Canada to bet on.

Don’t get me wrong, at the moment, I’d rather hitch my horse to Dassault, but here we are.

 

[markppcli]

Internal - F35

External - comparable

Ferry - Gripen.

Considering Gripen doesnt really need to worry about stealth, i dont think tossing tanks on them matters that much, but i'll let the airheads speak to that one.

The Gripen also absolutely needs to worry about its radar cross section. Thats how it gets targeted. In a BVR engagement RCS equates to how far out the other guy is launching his missiles - you want to do that first. A Gripen with a big RCS gets engaged before a jet with a smaller one. If we dont care about its performance in air to air combat why are we buying a fighter at all?

 

[Altair]

The Gripen also absolutely needs to worry about its radar cross section. Thats how it gets targeted. In a BVR engagement RCS equates to how far out the other guy is launching his missiles - you want to do that first. A Gripen with a big RCS gets engaged before a jet with a smaller one. If we dont care about its performance in air to air combat why are we buying a fighter at all?

Different fighters for different needs.

All the countries using Rafales, Eurofighters, F16s have similiar concerns, and they all find a way to use them.

Canada isn't a special little case where we absolutely have zero requirements for a 4th Gen fighter. Even the mighty US of A finds a use for 4th gen fighters.

Unless someone is willing to state exactly how the Gripen is miles worse that a Rafale, Typhoon, F16 block 70/72, I really don't want to hear it.

 

[Altair]

If it sounds too good to be true.....

Yeah, sure.

Name one that is offering even half of what SAAB is.

If SAAB only delivers half of what they are offering, it's infinitely more than what anyone else has on offer, which is...nothing.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Yeah, sure.

Name one that is offering even half of what SAAB is.

If SAAB only delivers half of what they are offering, it's infinitely more than what anyone else has on offer, which is...nothing.

I think that you are looking at this differently that I am.

I'm content with our 5th Gen selection of the F35. Final numbers are a bit of a toss up.

I'm not thinking about 4th Gen or 4.5Gen fighter and the production of them.

I'm focused on where we go next with the 6th Gen fighter. Will it be GCAP or will it be a consortium yet to be defined that would include Canada, that may or may not contain more than 1 of the following countries: Germany, Sweden, Spain, Poland, France, South Korea. I'm not thinking about Canada teaming up with just 1 of these countries - though if a gun was put to my head, I would select France over Sweden IF we were forced to only team with 1 country.

All the countries in the GCAP, along with Germany and Poland already either have all of their F35's in service or are in the process of obtaining their last batches of F35. Of that group, we are the 'odd duck' that has yet to receive its first F35 and still haven't a clue as to how many we'll end up with. The GCAP group, and Germany and Poland (?) are already looking into the future and what they will need next while we are trying to understand our current reality and what that may in fact be. We need to be visionary right now, open our eyes wide to the 6th Gen future and move rapidly towards it before our options wither on the vine.

 

[ArmyRick]

Don't forget the South Koreans whispers armyrick

KF21, it at least looks cooler than the 1988 designed gripen.

and South Korea would be diversifying

KAI KF-21 Boramae - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Altair]

I think that you are looking at this differently that I am.

I'm content with our 5th Gen selection of the F35. Final numbers are a bit of a toss up.

I'm not thinking about 4th Gen or 4.5Gen fighter and the production of them.

I'm focused on where we go next with the 6th Gen fighter. Will it be GCAP or will it be a consortium yet to be defined that would include Canada, that may or may not contain more than 1 of the following countries: Germany, Sweden, Spain, Poland, France, South Korea. I'm not thinking about Canada teaming up with just 1 of these countries - though if a gun was put to my head, I would select France over Sweden IF we were forced to only team with 1 country.

All the countries in the GCAP, along with Germany and Poland already either have all of their F35's in service or are in the process of obtaining their last batches of F35. Of that group, we are the 'odd duck' that has yet to receive its first F35 and still haven't a clue as to how many we'll end up with. The GCAP group, and Germany and Poland (?) are already looking into the future and what they will need next while we are trying to understand our current reality and what that may in fact be. We need to be visionary right now, open our eyes wide to the 6th Gen future and move rapidly towards it before our options wither on the vine.

Yes, I am looking at this at a longevity exercise.

GCAP is nice, I like it, I think we should join it, but I don't trust future Canadian governments with it.

Will GCAP have enough direct jobs here in canada, a industrial base that is at stake?

The F35 suggests that maybe not.

GDLS suggests that having a facility here, with Canadian jobs here, with stakes here, might just.

 

[suffolkowner]

Previous with GCAP it was stated that there was no room for more partners or workshare. Recently there seems to be some movement there.
GCAP looks like the best program with the best companies experience wise but a SAAB/AIRBUS would be a serious opportunity.
As far as FCAS goes, I would question whether we could make it work where so many else have failed in dealing with France/Dassault

 

[armrdsoul77]

The Gripen also absolutely needs to worry about its radar cross section. Thats how it gets targeted. In a BVR engagement RCS equates to how far out the other guy is launching his missiles - you want to do that first. A Gripen with a big RCS gets engaged before a jet with a smaller one. If we dont care about its performance in air to air combat why are we buying a fighter at all?

Then the CF35A will be used in such an environment.
But is the CF35A overkill for the CAP at a Fifa event(such as the CF18's are currently doing over Vancouver?).

 

[Czech_pivo]

Previous with GCAP it was stated that there was no room for more partners or workshare. Recently there seems to be some movement there.
GCAP looks like the best program with the best companies experience wise but a SAAB/AIRBUS would be a serious opportunity.
As far as FCAS goes, I would question whether we could make it work where so many else have failed in dealing with France/Dassault

3 reasons why I think GCAP may have room for us.

1) UK is broke, semi-friendless and is increasingly desperate for close allies
2) Us buying 22 M346's from Italy and allowing them priority access to critical minerals going forward
3) If the RCN selects the KS-III, then that shows to Japan that we are talking the threats in the Pacific more seriously and that might open them up to greater closeness with us.

 

[KevinB]

Don't forget the South Koreans whispers armyrick

KF21, it at least looks cooler than the 1988 designed gripen.

and South Korea would be diversifying

KAI KF-21 Boramae - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The SK’a have tried to copy the F-22 there.
Not honestly a bad idea, it’s still generations above what anything else can do in the air.
Low radar profile, crazy maneuvering. Just needs updated radar and sensors.

I’m just unsure if they can get it done.