The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Czech_pivo]

The SK’a have tried to copy the F-22 there.
Not honestly a bad idea, it’s still generations above what anything else can do in the air.
Low radar profile, crazy maneuvering. Just needs updated radar and sensors.

I’m just unsure if they can get it done.

If the SK's have signed up for the task of building their own nuc boat, I'll give them decent odds on pulling off their version of a F22.

 

[suffolkowner]

3 reasons why I think GCAP may have room for us.

1) UK is broke, semi-friendless and is increasingly desperate for close allies
2) Us buying 22 M346's from Italy and allowing them priority access to critical minerals going forward
3) If the RCN selects the KS-III, then that shows to Japan that we are talking the threats in the Pacific more seriously and that might open them up to greater closeness with us.

Yes the UK seems all out of sorts right now, but if we are in on GCAP, where does that leave us with SAAB? Some sort of loyal wingman?

 

[ArmyRick]

If the SK's have signed up for the task of building their own nuc boat, I'll give them decent odds on pulling off their version of a F22.

SK makes a lot of good kit, having your rivals that want to kill you living next door sets the priorities straight.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Yes the UK seems all out of sorts right now, but if we are in on GCAP, where does that leave us with SAAB? Some sort of loyal wingman?

No clue to be honest. Possibly, and that won't be a bad idea at all.

A back of the napkin cost for the 22 M346's from Italy will come in around 1.7-2b Euro's. That kind of money should grease the wheels in letting the Italians let us into GCAP.

 

[KevinB]

Yes the UK seems all out of sorts right now, but if we are in on GCAP, where does that leave us with SAAB? Some sort of loyal wingman?

Honestly that to me is where Canada can really go hard on.

It’s an area that is you going to have demand explode, and has room for ironing out kinks along the way due to being uncrewed.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Give me 88 F35s, 100 Grippens and let's make the pilots mechanics and logistics train to support them.

Yes the UK seems all out of sorts right now, but if we are in on GCAP, where does that leave us with SAAB? Some sort of loyal wingman?

Why do we need to be left somewhere with SAAB?

 

[suffolkowner]

Why do we need to be left somewhere with SAAB?

We dont, just seems like there's a lot of smoke there

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Don't forget the South Koreans whispers armyrick

KF21, it at least looks cooler than the 1988 designed gripen.

and South Korea would be diversifying

KAI KF-21 Boramae - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm also a KF-21 fan and think it would be a much better deal then the Gripen, but, alas it appears nothing will happen.

The question came up in one of Noah's Q & A substacks back in May and this is his answer:

Q11. Will Korea offer the KF-21 to Canada seeing as how close we are?

They raised it; we didn't have interest. KAI was minimally engaged by the Fighter review and basically eliminated from the start. KAI has had little interest in pushing for it as well. They don't see it as a winning likelihood. They're focused on FFLIT and the TF-50.

And unfortunately has Canada decided to go with the M-346 instead of the TF-50 which I also liked.

 

[Altair]

Previous with GCAP it was stated that there was no room for more partners or workshare. Recently there seems to be some movement there.

If we can shift some of the production line/parts here, maybe.

Again, the Canadian participation F35 doesn't exactly fill me with the warm and fuzzies.

GCAP looks like the best program with the best companies experience wise but a SAAB/AIRBUS would be a serious opportunity.

This

As far as FCAS goes, I would question whether we could make it work where so many else have failed in dealing with France/Dassault

Quick answer....no.

 

[markppcli]

Different fighters for different needs.

All the countries using Rafales, Eurofighters, F16s have similiar concerns, and they all find a way to use them.

Canada isn't a special little case where we absolutely have zero requirements for a 4th Gen fighter. Even the mighty US of A finds a use for 4th gen fighters.

Unless someone is willing to state exactly how the Gripen is miles worse that a Rafale, Typhoon, F16 block 70/72, I really don't want to hear it.

You're dodging the response to your own question and resorting to setting ultimatums in this discussion.


However I'll bite. The Gripen E has a grand total of 16 air frames produced. It is a small small fleet with essentially 0 history or post production development. Rapheal, Typhoon, and even F16 block 70 (the new production F16s are going to Bulgaria and Slovakia to replace decades old Mig 29s so its abiut being broke more than anything) all have 20 years of fixes and proven records. People that cite the Gripens cost per hour are making a claim that cannot be true: Gripen E is an entirely new air frame and its the same thing as the C/D. It cannot be both. It isnt.

Now as to why Canada is different, go google any country using Eurofighter and tell me the size of their air force and if they operate solely Eurofighter. Raphale is a special case but France is looking for next steps.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

The SK’a have tried to copy the F-22 there.
Not honestly a bad idea, it’s still generations above what anything else can do in the air.
Low radar profile, crazy maneuvering. Just needs updated radar and sensors.

I’m just unsure if they can get it done.

South Korea is developing the KF-21 in three stages:

Stage 1: Certifying the aircraft for air-to-air combat which is where SK is at right now. The first aircraft has already been delivered and a total of 40 aircraft are planned for deliveries starting later this year.

Stage 2: Certification of the aircraft for air-to-ground and anti-ship munitions. I believe that this has already started and is expected to be completed next year(?) with deliveries in 2028.

Stage 3: This is the stage where the aircraft is developed into a true 5th Gen aircraft with stealth capability, internal weapons storage, advanced avionics and a new locally produced engine. Presently the KF-21 uses a locally produced version of the GE-414-400 engines (same engines in the F-18 Hornet).

This is the stage where the South Koreans could have the most problems and so far no timelines for its completion.

 

[Altair]

You're dodging the response to your own question and resorting to setting ultimatums in this discussion.

I am not.

However I'll bite. The Gripen E has a grand total of 16 air frames produced. It is a small small fleet with essentially 0 history or post production development.

Sure, but why does this matter? It's not like the Swedes have a bad track record with the planes they have made throughout history, or am I incorrect in saying so?

Rapheal, Typhoon, and even F16 block 70 (the new production F16s are going to Bulgaria and Slovakia to replace decades old Mig 29s so its abiut being broke more than anything) all have 20 years of fixes and proven records.

Sure, but it's not like SAAB is a new player on the block, they have been making fighters for 90 years.

People that cite the Gripens cost per hour are making a claim that cannot be true: Gripen E is an entirely new air frame and its the same thing as the C/D. It cannot be both. It isnt.

Is anyone here making that claim? I don't know what it is. Maybe we can ask the Brazilians, but I haven't seen anything from any current operators.

Now as to why Canada is different, go google any country using Eurofighter and tell me the size of their air force and if they operate solely Eurofighter.

Now we are cooking with fire.

UK- 137 Typhoons/47 F35s

Italy- 96 Typhoons, 38 F35s

Germany- 196 Typhoons/35 F35s

Poland- 48 F16 Vipers/ 29 F35s

Greece- 24 Rafales/20 F35s

Now if you are saying we cannot do what Poland or Greece does, I'm just going to say...I don't believe you.

Hell, maybe even matching Italy would be nice.

Raphale is a special case but France is looking for next steps.

Sure.

 

[suffolkowner]

I am not.

Sure, but why does this matter? It's not like the Swedes have a bad track record with the planes they have made throughout history, or am I incorrect in saying so?

Sure, but it's not like SAAB is a new player on the block, they have been making fighters for 90 years.

Is anyone here making that claim? I don't know what it is. Maybe we can ask the Brazilians, but I haven't seen anything from any current operators.

Now we are cooking with fire.

UK- 137 Typhoons/47 F35s

Italy- 96 Typhoons, 38 F35s

Germany- 196 Typhoons/35 F35s

Poland- 48 F16 Vipers/ 29 F35s

Greece- 24 Rafales/20 F35s

Now if you are saying we cannot do what Poland or Greece does, I'm just going to say...I don't believe you.

Hell, maybe even matching Italy would be nice.

Sure.

most of these countries added F35s to their 4th gen fleets, with a Gripen we'd be adding a 4th to a 5th gen fleet-backwards

 

[Altair]

most of these countries added F35s to their 4th gen fleets, with a Gripen we'd be adding a 4th to a 5th gen fleet-backwards

Who cares?

 

[ArmyRick]

Who cares?

If someone told me they were giving me brand new M113A4s to go along with my CV90 MK4s, I may not be too impressed.

 

[suffolkowner]

Who cares?

everyone?

the other countries are also into the process of replacing their 4th gens with 6th gens
the timing just seems off

 

[Altair]

If someone told me they were giving me brand new M113A4s to go along with my CV90 MK4s, I may not be too impressed.

If we get to where our allies are, does it matter how we get there?

 

[Altair]

everyone?

If we get to the same place everyone else is, who care how we get there?

the other countries are also into the process of replacing their 4th gens with 6th gens

Not true, nations are still buying Rafales, Typhoons and F16 block 70/72

And nobody is replacing their 4th gen with a 6th gen. they are just trying to plan for the 6th gen.

the timing just seems off

Of all the things that matter, to me, that is so far down the list.

 

[markppcli]

I am not.

"I won't talk unless"

Sure, but why does this matter? It's not like the Swedes have a bad track record with the planes they have made throughout history, or am I incorrect in saying so?

They have minimal operational history. The Gripen has never been a great performer.

Sure, but it's not like SAAB is a new player on the block, they have been making fighters for 90 years.

Ford made the Pinto. They'd been making cars for years.

Is anyone here making that claim? I don't know what it is. Maybe we can ask the Brazilians, but I haven't seen anything from any current operators.

There are no current operators to go off. Brazil hasn't had jets for more than a year and the project is such a shambles I doubt theyll publicize much.

Now we are cooking with fire.

UK- 137 Typhoons/47 F35s

RAF 35000

Italy- 96 Typhoons, 38 F35s

Italian Air Force 43000

Germany- 196 Typhoons/35 F35s

28000

Poland- 48 F16 Vipers/ 29 F35s

16500

Greece- 24 Rafales/20 F35s

33000

Now if you are saying we cannot do what Poland or Greece does, I'm just going to say...I don't believe you.

Hell, maybe even matching Italy would be nice.

So if youd actually read what my two previous replies had said: split fleets require larger air forces. The RCAF handles all our rotary wing and its still smaller than Poles and the Greeks. If you want to quadruple the size of the RCAF to handle a split fleet - ie matching Italy, Im all for it. However I think thats probably a low probability option in the next couple years.

Who cares?

People who have to rely on them to fight and live.

 

[ArmyRick]

If we get to where our allies are, does it matter how we get there?

We have an operational requirement to fulfill here. Grabbing a jet for the sake of saying we have a second jet is not what we want.