Directives to military chaplains urge expunging God, religion from Remembrance Day, public ceremonies

[dapaterson]

To me this is essentially saying that on the off chance we might get something wrong we shouldnt try to get something right. Objectively we do have spirituality in the CAF, in fact we have an entire corps dedicated to it. I seem to recall strong opposition to the idea of removing chaplains. The idea that indigenous culture is from "centuries ago" ignores that people continued these practices despite the government's best efforts, these are contemporary cultural practices.

Christianity is from two millennia ago...

 

[Jarnhamar]

To me this is essentially saying that on the off chance we might get something wrong we shouldnt try to get something right. Objectively we do have spirituality in the CAF, in fact we have an entire corps dedicated to it. I seem to recall strong opposition to the idea of removing chaplains. The idea that indigenous culture is from "centuries ago" ignores that people continued these practices despite the government's best efforts, these are contemporary cultural practices.

Chaplains seem to be a dying breed. I usually see new ones pop up wide-eyed and exuberant to do their work. Then they disappear in under a year and a new one pops out. Spread pretty thin too - seen one covering 6 units once. Our (western) society is moving away from religion IMO.

I can understand their place in the CAF though, where they tend to and provide different services to believers and non-believers alike.

I don't really see what Indigenous First Nations cultural practices from hundreds of years ago brings to the table with a society that's largely uninterested. Under 5% of of Canadians identity as Indigenous. 2.9% of which identify as First Nations. (2021 census numbers mind you)

2.8% of the Regular Force and reserves identify as indigenous (2025 numbers), no numbers on First Nations specifically that I found.

Interestingly only 27% of Canadian Rangers identify as indigenous, I thought it would be much higher.

All that to say I don't see what Injecting First Nation culture in the CAF or Canada would accomplish but it could just be over my head.

 

[markppcli]

Chaplains seem to be a dying breed. I usually see new ones pop up wide-eyed and exuberant to do their work. Then they disappear in under a year and a new one pops out. Spread pretty thin too - seen one covering 6 units once. Our (western) society is moving away from religion IMO.

I can understand their place in the CAF though, where they tend to and provide different services to believers and non-believers alike.

I don't really see what Indigenous First Nations cultural practices from hundreds of years ago brings to the table with a society that's largely uninterested. Under 5% of of Canadians identity as Indigenous. 2.9% of which identify as First Nations. (2021 census numbers mind you)

2.8% of the Regular Force and reserves identify as indigenous (2025 numbers), no numbers on First Nations specifically that I found.

Interestingly only 27% of Canadian Rangers identify as indigenous, I thought it would be much higher.

All that to say I don't see what Injecting First Nation culture in the CAF or Canada would accomplish but it could just be over my head.

Again not from 100 years ago. They're very much alive. My point is tbat in general theres value is recognizing the indigenous culture of this country, how we do that effectively I dont know. Like I said about NZ, its a place that does it very effectively but tbats not a one size fits all solution.

 

[quadrapiper]

I don't really see what Indigenous First Nations cultural practices from hundreds of years ago brings to the table with a society that's largely uninterested.

An inarguably preeminent religious/spiritual/not the CO, Mayor, etc. voice for any event where someone making well-wishing appeals to the infinite seems fitting?

 

[Furniture]

An inarguably preeminent religious/spiritual/not the CO, Mayor, etc. voice for any event where someone making well-wishing appeals to the infinite seems fitting?

If it's that general why bother? Nobody who actually cares about their religion/spirituality will be impressed by a weird "universe" prayer...

It's an appeasement that appeases nobody, but those who never needed to be appeased.

Imagine dealing with pay issues by having someone come out and make an appeal to "general monetary concepts", when you just wanted to be paid...

 

[Eaglelord17]

If it's that general why bother? Nobody who actually cares about their religion/spirituality will be impressed by a weird "universe" prayer...

It's an appeasement that appeases nobody, but those who never needed to be appeased.

Imagine dealing with pay issues by having someone come out and make an appeal to "general monetary concepts", when you just wanted to be paid...

Ahh yes the Phoenix paysystem method…

 

[The Bread Guy]

I don't really see what Indigenous First Nations cultural practices from hundreds of years ago ...

On that bit in yellow -- did laws outlawing some of the practices in place until as recently as 1951 have something to do with that?

Also, as others have pointed out, a lot of Christian stuff is +2K years old, so there's more to considered how long it's been around - or not.

 

[Jarnhamar]

On that bit in yellow -- did laws outlawing some of the practices in place until as recently as 1951 have something to do with that?

I'm not sure?

Also, as others have pointed out, a lot of Christian stuff is +2K years old, so there's more to considered how long it's been around - or not.

Which Christian cultural practices from 2000+ years ago are we talking about? Specifically that we should look at tying in with our military and national identity?

 

[daftandbarmy]

FWIW, I met a couple of troops who were 'Lay Preachers', with the US Army, a few years ago.

It's a secondary duty and seen as a a leadership development opportunity. They have people qualified to run a variety of different faith type services, and fill a gap for those service members who don't identify as one of the two 'big faiths' (Prot/Catholic).


In the U.S. Army, "lay preachers" or lay leaders are service members (enlisted personnel or officers) appointed to facilitate worship services, prayer groups, or faith-based activities when an ordained military chaplain of their specific denomination is unavailable. [1, 2]

Role and Function

• • Collateral Duty: Serving as a lay leader is a secondary assignment, not a primary military job. [1]
  • Authorization: Appointed in writing by the unit commander upon the recommendation of a supervising military chaplain.
  • Scope: They facilitate services (such as a Protestant or Catholic lay-led prayers/liturgies) in remote locations, deploying units, or smaller installations. [1, 2]
  • Limitations: They cannot perform sacraments (like consecrating the Eucharist or hearing formal confessions) reserved for ordained clergy, but they maintain spiritual continuity for troops. [1, 2]

Training and Support

• • Endorsement: Major faith groups and the Archdiocese for the Military Services, USA often train lay leaders to step in where shortages of active-duty priests or specialized ministers exist. [1]
  • Regulation: Governed by military regulations (such as Army Regulation 165-1), which outline how lay leaders operate under the supervision of the Unit Ministry Team.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I'm not sure?


Which Christian cultural practices from 2000+ years ago are we talking about? Specifically that we should look at tying in with our military and national identity?

Maybe not 2000 years ago, but at least 1400 years that our monarchy has been Christian (and head of a church just shy of 500 years) with a still slender thread holding on to that divine right of kings bull.

 

[Furniture]

Maybe not 2000 years ago, but at least 1400 years that our monarchy has been Christian (and head of a church just shy of 500 years) with a still slender thread holding on to that divine right of kings bull.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in Canada "divine right of kings" died before Canada was discovered by Europe. Magna Carta killed it in England, and by extension the UK.

Come back with a better argument.

 

[FJAG]

FWIW, I met a couple of troops who were 'Lay Preachers', with the US Army, a few years ago.

I guess there just wasn't enough proselytizing going on in the ranks.

United States Air Force Academy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[daftandbarmy]

I guess there just wasn't enough proselytizing going on in the ranks.

I was always amazed when, at the end of an O Group, the Yanks would take a knee and 'pray for victory'.

As a guy with a history background, I just kind of reveled in what I imagined it must have been like in a 'Coventanter-Company'

 

[mariomike]

I was always amazed when, at the end of an O Group, the Yanks would take a knee and 'pray for victory'.

Our departmental Chaplain leads our pensioner group in prayer.

We could "take a knee". But, some would need help getting back on their feet.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in Canada "divine right of kings" died before Canada was discovered by Europe. Magna Carta killed it in England, and by extension the UK.

Come back with a better argument.

"Charles the Third, by the Grace of God King of Canada and His other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth" is the official title of our monarch. What do you think "by the Grace of God" means? That is the remaining "slender thread" of the "divine right of kings" in Canada. Charles sits on the throne because, as antiquated as it may sound (and as contrarian as it may be to those of us who do not believe in acknowledge the existence of a God), the UK monarch (and by extension Canada's) is there because they enshrined in law the absurd notion that someone has the job due to the will of God.

You asked what Christian practices (religious/cultural) from 2000 years ago should be included in military or national life as part of a discussion that objected to including First Nation rituals in military ceremonies. The selection and installation of the Commonwealth monarchies is predominantly a Christian (read Protestant) service. The British coronation ceremony (in which Canada participated) was a religious service and unique among remaining European monarchies for hanging on to that religious aspect.

The Sacred Nature of Monarchy | St Paul's Cathedral

www.stpauls.co.uk

 

[YZT580]

"Charles the Third, by the Grace of God King of Canada and His other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth" is the official title of our monarch. What do you think "by the Grace of God" means? That is the remaining "slender thread" of the "divine right of kings" in Canada. Charles sits on the throne because, as antiquated as it may sound (and as contrarian as it may be to those of us who do not believe in acknowledge the existence of a God), the UK monarch (and by extension Canada's) is there because they enshrined in law the absurd notion that someone has the job due to the will of God.

You asked what Christian practices (religious/cultural) from 2000 years ago should be included in military or national life as part of a discussion that objected to including First Nation rituals in military ceremonies. The selection and installation of the Commonwealth monarchies is predominantly a Christian (read Protestant) service. The British coronation ceremony (in which Canada participated) was a religious service and unique among remaining European monarchies for hanging on to that religious aspect.

The Sacred Nature of Monarchy | St Paul's Cathedral

www.stpauls.co.uk

Divine right implies that he can do whatever he so wishes. That was Louis of France position. The meaning of "By the Grace of God" is totally different. Charles rules only so far and for only as long as God permits it would be a far more accurate definition.