Informing the Army’s Future Structure - CAMO Discussion

[PuckChaser]

You have to think of the community being capable of handling a large influx of RegF soldiers, and the want of those soldiers to actually be posted to those bases. Shilo is not high on the list.

 

[PrairieFella]

You have to think of the community being capable of handling a large influx of RegF soldiers, and the want of those soldiers to actually be posted to those bases. Shilo is not high on the list.

I think the city of Brandon can pretty easily absorb that.

 

[PuckChaser]

I think the city of Brandon can pretty easily absorb that.

Smarter people than us did COA comparisons which are SharePoint searchable. I will trust their judgement.

 

[Infanteer]

Odd thing for me - why is the Arty Bde headquartered in Edmonton when Shilo or Gagetown are probably better suited? I guess proximity isnt really needed in the 21st century.

Because what the Arty Bde does for 1 Cdn Div HQ is far more important than what it will do for its subordinate units. This sounds counterintuitive, but field regiments will be able to shoot and move regardless of where their higher HQ is located. 1 Div cannot resource the close and fight the deep fight without close integration with 1 CAB.

 

[FJAG]

Interesting. What differentiated (Reserve) Infantry Bdes and (Reserve) Cavalry Bdes?

There were some additional name changes and the cavalry brigades were retitles armoured brigades as they had been during the war. In general, WW2 infantry brigades had three infantry battalions and armoured brigades three tank and one motorized infantry battalion. The tanks at this time would have been Shermans.

Note that during the war, the (Reserve) Brigade Groups were true brigade groups as we understand them with their own artillery, RCEME, engrs etc. This would be unlike the brigades in the army's divisions in Europe that followed a divisional structure.

There's a listing of all the 1942-(Reserve) Brigade Group structures here.

Post war the restructure created six divisions and three, then four, armoured brigades in two corps, but I'm not certain as to the administrative grouping of units vis a vis district headquarters and brigades. My guess is that districts were administratively responsible for all units within their area of responsibility. I do know that from an organizational point of view each division had a divisional Commander Royal Artillery (CRA) which means any regiments could be assigned to the division to operate under his command. In short, while I'm not sure, I think the div and bde structure was as per the overseas wartime structure.

why is the Arty Bde headquartered in Edmonton when Shilo or Gagetown are probably better suited? I guess proximity isnt really needed in the 21st century

Because what the Arty Bde does for 1 Cdn Div HQ is far more important than what it will do for its subordinate units.

Absolutely correct. The 1 CAB commander and his staff work best directly with the division commander and headquarters. They form the equivalent of an arty tac and FSCC element with the div headquarters as well as have other staff which manage the operations and sustainment of all assigned fires resources. Arty regiments are interchangeable building blocks while the CAB is intimately linked to the division HQ. It is best located in Edmonton.

That said though, I would have thought 1 Div HQ and 1 CAB HQ would have been better located in Winnipeg which is more central to all of its major brigades and units and has a strong central airport hub and, for that matter, would be closely located to 1 Air Div for face-to-face resource coord. Hey! They're already changing their letterhead anyway.

 

[markppcli]

Big Army piece on tomorrow's TOCA. Odd thing for me - why is the Arty Bde headquartered in Edmonton when Shilo or Gagetown are probably better suited? I guess proximity isnt really needed in the 21st century.

Introducing 1st Canadian Division

“The Army we have is not the Army we need,” said Lieutenant General Michael Wright, Commander of the Canadian Army, in Inflection Point 2025.

www.canada.ca

Space, capacity, and coordination.

 

[Kilted]

I mean numbered vs sequential. Ie 1 vs 1st. It should ge 31st, 32nd, 33rd ect CBG.

I assumed that that was a typo for the Reg Force Brigades. That being said, when they were originally formed in the First World War, that's what they were referred to as, 1st Canadian Infantry Brigade, etc.

 

[MilEME09]

I think the city of Brandon can pretty easily absorb that.

Probably not right away, drop a brigade there and it woukd be a housing crisis of DNDs making.

The fun thing about all this is getting told new patches for 2 div arent ready, and to just stich rip the old 3 div patch off our DEUs for now.

 

[McG]

Probably not right away, drop a brigade there and it woukd be a housing crisis of DNDs making.

The question was not where to put the brigade (it will be spread across the country). The question was just about the brigade HQ.

 

[McG]

That said though, I would have thought 1 Div HQ and 1 CAB HQ would have been better located in Winnipeg which is more central to all of its major brigades and units and has a strong central airport hub

Edmonton has a good airport hub, but it is definitely a long flight (or more) to see the subordinate formations. But I look at several formations that decided Kingston was the best place to establish roots, and I conclude the ability to visit subordinates or to receive subordinates is not important.

With no airport in the city, most travel will incorporate trains, planes, and automobiles. Or, it will be done in one highway trip that takes substantially more time that a flight would have required.

 

[markppcli]

Probably not right away, drop a brigade there and it woukd be a housing crisis of DNDs making.

The fun thing about all this is getting told new patches for 2 div arent ready, and to just stich rip the old 3 div patch off our DEUs for now.

Same on three div. Of course we never had Land Force Area Patches so maybe we'll just never replace them.

That said though, I would have thought 1 Div HQ and 1 CAB HQ would have been better located in Winnipeg which is more central to all of its major brigades and units and has a strong central airport hub and, for that matter, would be closely located to 1 Air Div for face-to-face resource coord. Hey! They're already changing their letterhead anyway.

First time I've heard of Winnipeg described as a strong air port hub. Jokes aside the travel time difference is an hour.

 

[KevinB]

Same on three div. Of course we never had Land Force Area Patches so maybe we'll just never replace them.

No chest badge?
FMC, AMF-L, LFC, or whatever it is now for the Army?

First time I've heard of Winnipeg described as a strong air port hub. Jokes aside the travel time difference is an hour.

I had assumed the context was Mil Air.
But again, I’m not even sure if that really is such a thing anymore.

 

[markppcli]

No chest badge?
FMC, AMF-L, LFC, or whatever it is now for the Army?

Theres the CA pin / badge on the chest, which replaced the Land Forces badge. What I meant was there was no shoulder patch like we now have for the division.

I had assumed the context was Mil Air.
But again, I’m not even sure if that really is such a thing anymore.

Im not saying it never happens but I dont think the Div commander is getting a C130 / 330 to fly him to Pet for a conference when we can book him commercial.

 

[McG]

Same on three div. Of course we never had Land Force Area Patches so maybe we'll just never replace them.

New div patches are already in circulation for combat uniforms.

 

[Kilted]

New div patches are already in circulation for combat uniforms.

Well, I mean they are exactly the same as before. The people in 34 and 35 CBG don't even need to change theirs.

 

[markppcli]

New div patches are already in circulation for combat uniforms.

I'll stand by on direction. I expect were going to try and ensure everyone can get through the tailors before we all adopt the 1st Can Div patch which will mean no Div patch on DEUs till mid November.

 

[boredtoon]

Theres the CA pin / badge on the chest, which replaced the Land Forces badge. What I meant was there was no shoulder patch like we now have for the division.

Which will be removed when the army gets its new service dress.

I'll stand by on direction. I expect were going to try and ensure everyone can get through the tailors before we all adopt the 1st Can Div patch which will mean no Div patch on DEUs till mid November.

They could save a bit of money and time for the troops by just doing away with formation patches on the DEUs.

 

[markppcli]

Which will be removed when the army gets its new service dress.

They could save a bit of money and time for the troops by just doing away with formation patches on the DEUs.

Some how everyone knew 1 CMBG was part of LFWA but 3 Can Div required a patch.

 

[Kilted]

Which will be removed when the army gets its new service dress.

They could save a bit of money and time for the troops by just doing away with formation patches on the DEUs.

Have they actually said that their will be no formations patches on the new service dress?

 

[PrairieFella]

Have they actually said that their will be no formations patches on the new service dress?

Thatd be deadly. Traditional shoulder flashes would be cool too.