The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[dapaterson]

Some of the professional HR (or lack there of) criticism is warranted.

However, I would also point out that a pure Civ HR solution to the CAF is no panacea as many of the Military’s HR challenges just are not replicable in the Civilian world (ie, an actual functioning casualty replacement plan).

Maybe a HR sub-specialty as a remuster trade, backed up by Public servants for continuity?

But, this is well off topic for fighters.

We are in violent agreement - a pure Civ HR solution would fail; we need military professionals (supported by civilian expertise). We also need non specialist officers to learn to listen to and respect military professionals who may be junior in rank, but have more knowledge than them within a domain.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

We are in violent agreement - a pure Civ HR solution would fail; we need military professionals (supported by civilian expertise). We also need non specialist officers to learn to listen to and respect military professionals who may be junior in rank, but have more knowledge than them within a domain.

Ha. Good one.

 

[dapaterson]

Ha. Good one.

I can dream, can't I?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Start with professionals doing the HR management, including attraction, selection and recruiting, and having excess training capacity ready, and not a starved IT&E system.

CAF compensation and benefits are extremely generous (despite the whining from some sectors (cough pilots cough)).

A fixed training schedule that reflects the needs of students and young workers and also one the senior staff of the units can all plan their lives around.

 

[ytz]

We're well paid, thats not the issue.

Disagree. Only in part. Being a reservist is a substantial commitment for a part time job. I do think this needs to be disproportionately compensated to get the numbers we want. And not just pay (which is generous, as you pointed out). It would be good to see better tuition assistance and/or health and social benefits.

 

[PuckChaser]

Disagree. Only in part. Being a reservist is a substantial commitment for a part time job. I do think this needs to be disproportionately compensated to get the numbers we want. And not just pay (which is generous, as you pointed out). It would be good to see better tuition assistance and/or health and social benefits.

Reservists get 92% of RegF pay without any of the downsides. Its a fair deal.

If you wanted to talk about proper federal/provincial job protection legislation to allow more to serve, then thats a real conversation.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I thought that was optional.

You are correct; my bad. Here is the AI answer:

The aircraft features a fully integrated and certified AAR system, allowing it to receive fuel from tanker aircraft such as the KC-767. This capability enables long-range missions, rapid deployment to forward operating bases, and allows the trainer to be used for AAR training operations itself. The M-346 is noted as the only advanced fly-by-wire trainer and light fighter in the world certified for this specific operation.

The M-346 uses a probe-and-drogue system, the standard NATO method. Here's how it works:

The probe is a fixed, quickly removable rigid arm mounted on the starboard side of the forward fuselage, ahead of the cockpit. It's not permanently installed — it's fitted only when a mission requires AAR, which keeps drag low on clean training sorties.

 

[YZT580]

We're well paid, thats not the issue.

but not well-known. School guidance counsellors whom I have encountered kept the DND folders in the cupboard or on a top shelf out of sight. When asked why the response from these individuals was that they weren't about to promote war and violence. I guess (purely my thought) that they are too busy encouraging/teaching the benefits of civil disobedience. Cadets were moved out of the schools if Oakville was any indicator. These policies have been pursued for several decades now.

 

[suffolkowner]

You really seem to be missing the point. The Space Shuttle worked just fine. But it took that much code to run it. And all that code has to be maintained. It also generates output. That output drives work. So if a given system has 100X the code for example, it's not unreasonable to expect a 10x demand in overall manning. Best I can say without really getting into the weeds. The code comparison was to show you the relative difference in complexity.



No it doesn't. It just drives demands for different labour and different skills.

The F-35 and P-8 alone are driving the creation of 3 new trades in the RCAF and substantially changing a whole bunch of doctrine, TTPs, etc.

Just because a bunch of retired Boomers think it's all mumbo-jumbo doesn't change the reality of the transformation the RCAF has to pull off.



Depends. How much of that growth is allocated to the RCAF and in what time horizon. Double the RCAF in size and maybe we'll be able to operate two fleets. Insist that we many two fighter fleets in 2035, and I tell you right now, there will be lots of parked aircraft wasting away....

As it stands, everybody is basically crossing fingers and hoping that pilot training plans will meet current fleet projections in 2035. And these were all sized for the fleet plans we have. Increase the fleet projection for 2035, and you now have to substantially change the training system to deliver more. We aren't even buying enough lead in aircraft, for example, to train more pilots than the what we need for the 88 F-35. Imagine having to double the FLIT pipeline in like 7 years. I don't think something like that would happen. I think the RCAF would just quietly park aircraft.



No. And really, we're all preparing ourselves mentally to get stuck with Cyclone 2.0. But the math is just not mathing. The personnel growth (both planned and actual) is not lining up the visions that people have off two fleets. I hate the assertion that this is just some RCAF fetish with American kit. When I hang up my uniform every night, I'm still Canadian and I want this country succeed. However, I also recognize that an institution that has been starved for literally decades can't just pivot on a dime. There is no spare capacity. And there's a lot of people in staff jobs, standards, etc. working multiple jobs or more than their allocated share and burning out.

And in the immediate term, the question becomes what do you tradeoff. For example, we still have exercised the two options on the P-8s. We only booked 6 Globaleyes, instead of 8. We have a Deep Sensing and Electronic Attack capability on the books with another half dozen (probably) Globals. We have space capabilities, various EW and munitions projects we want to pull off over the next decade or so. Hell, 1 Wing is proposing completely replacing the Griffon with a mix of medium lift, attack helos and theatre level MALE UAS. How much of all that should get scrapped to buy fourth gen jets that will obsolete within a decade of delivery and have very low YFR flown because we don't have the techs or pilots anyway?

If you're in the Navy, you should be mad as hell that nobody is pushing for more P-8s. If you're in the Army, you should be upset that you might be riding a Griffon in 2035 thanks to the Gripen and have zero deep sensing and EA capability. None of the chuds online think of opportunity cost. But it's disappointing that so many people here who wore a uniform can't seem to grasp this either.

are we going to get the other two P8s? Has the opportunity passed?

 

[Czech_pivo]

but not well-known. School guidance counsellors whom I have encountered kept the DND folders in the cupboard or on a top shelf out of sight. When asked why the response from these individuals was that they weren't about to promote war and violence. I guess (purely my thought) that they are too busy encouraging/teaching the benefits of civil disobedience. Cadets were moved out of the schools if Oakville was any indicator. These policies have been pursued for several decades now.

Thanks to the various Teachers Unions.

 

[ytz]

are we going to get the other two P8s? Has the opportunity passed?

No idea when the drop dead date is for the options. But I do think we're probably running up on the deadline.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Thanks to the various Teachers Unions.

It's deeper than. Teachers unions. They aren't blame free though, they definitely bought in.

We've raised generations to disregard our military history. We raised the last 10 years to believe the history of Canada is racist and bigoted.

This isn't the work of teachers unions. This is work of people ideologically opposed to Canada.

Who benefits from the destruction of our social cohesion and fabric ?

A storm is coming. Invest wisely.

 

[lenaitch]

The forces started losing it when they moved out into the boondocks. I was brought up with Ortona barracks just around the corner and all the drums and bugle calls that went with it. Seeing uniforms doing the grocery shopping was the norm. Army kids sat in the same row in school. In short, the military was part of our community and we did know about it. Then, they were gone. Cadets vanished from the high school and you were no more. Activating long gone reserve facilities to the point where they become relevant within the communities will go a long way towards improving the public's involvement and interest in the DND at least in my opinion.

A lot of the CAF has always been in the boonies, and bases and stations were a lot more self-contained than they are now.

We live in North Bay (~53000 pop.). Our daughter runs the museum on CFB North Bay. The base is a lot smaller than it used to be - around 700 total - with no flying operations, but she continually hears from locals that they didn't know there was a base in the city. All military kids go to local schools. A lot of base staff live on the economy. There used to be a recruiting office but it closed a few years ago.

International Tactical Training Centre (a division of International Test Pilot School) has opened up a shop here and is currently training Ukrainian pilot. It's been all over the local news. People think the RCAF has returned fighters to North Bay.

I think the awareness issue is a lot deeper and more complex.

 

[daftandbarmy]

A lot of the CAF has always been in the boonies, and bases and stations were a lot more self-contained than they are now.

We live in North Bay (~53000 pop.). Our daughter runs the museum on CFB North Bay. The base is a lot smaller than it used to be - around 700 total - with no flying operations, but she continually hears from locals that they didn't know there was a base in the city. All military kids go to local schools. A lot of base staff live on the economy. There used to be a recruiting office but it closed a few years ago.

International Tactical Training Centre (a division of International Test Pilot School) has opened up a shop here and is currently training Ukrainian pilot. It's been all over the local news. People think the RCAF has returned fighters to North Bay.

I think the awareness issue is a lot deeper and more complex.

I live in Victoria and, without too much effort, you can see 'Canada's Pacific Fleet' from here.

There are several militia units, and a navy reserve unit, in the area too; hundreds of CAF members.

Apart from Remembrance Day, you'd have no idea there were any military people in town. On rare occasions you might see a sailor walking down the street in uniform, on some kind of personal errand presumably.

Same goes for media presence as they're pretty much invisible, as is the CFRC which is sequestered in a BC government building complex far away from where most people hang out in town.

Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[brihard]

A lot of the CAF has always been in the boonies, and bases and stations were a lot more self-contained than they are now.

We live in North Bay (~53000 pop.). Our daughter runs the museum on CFB North Bay. The base is a lot smaller than it used to be - around 700 total - with no flying operations, but she continually hears from locals that they didn't know there was a base in the city. All military kids go to local schools. A lot of base staff live on the economy. There used to be a recruiting office but it closed a few years ago.

International Tactical Training Centre (a division of International Test Pilot School) has opened up a shop here and is currently training Ukrainian pilot. It's been all over the local news. People think the RCAF has returned fighters to North Bay.

I think the awareness issue is a lot deeper and more complex.

I live in Victoria and, without too much effort, you can see 'Canada's Pacific Fleet' from here.

There are several militia units, and a navy reserve unit, in the area too; hundreds of CAF members.

Apart from Remembrance Day, you'd have no idea there were any military people in town. On rare occasions you might see a sailor walking down the street in uniform, on some kind of personal errand presumably.

Same goes for media presence as they're pretty much invisible, as is the CFRC which is sequestered in a BC government building complex far away from where most people hang out in town.

Out of sight, out of mind.

Yup. Canada’s military is, safe for modest and quite concentrated Reserve presence, very isolated from its population centres. GTA, Montreal, metro Vancouver, etc. More than half of Canada’s population lives in the ten largest urban metropoles, and of those ten only Ottawa-Gatineau, Edmonton, and Quebec City have much visible military presence. So more than 40% of Canada’s population is in seven of the ten biggest cities with minimal exposure to CAF.

If we want Canada’s population joining CAF, they have to know about and consider CAF, so they have to occasionally notice CAF. How can CAF footprint better and more visibly across communities? Obviously better distribution of PRes throughout communities would help, but what else? Is there a way to put a meaningful and visible RegF presence in or near the large urban centres?

 

[armrdsoul77]

A lot of the CAF has always been in the boonies, and bases and stations were a lot more self-contained than they are now.

We live in North Bay (~53000 pop.). Our daughter runs the museum on CFB North Bay. The base is a lot smaller than it used to be - around 700 total - with no flying operations, but she continually hears from locals that they didn't know there was a base in the city. All military kids go to local schools. A lot of base staff live on the economy. There used to be a recruiting office but it closed a few years ago.

International Tactical Training Centre (a division of International Test Pilot School) has opened up a shop here and is currently training Ukrainian pilot. It's been all over the local news. People think the RCAF has returned fighters to North Bay.

I think the awareness issue is a lot deeper and more complex.

I visited North Bay on my drive across Canada in the summer of 2022 and stopped in at the base museum. Not sure if your daughter was working there at the time but the lovely young lady was very welcoming and I noticed she made sure to have a little interaction with each of the visitors(I dorked out when I got to sit in the T33 cockpit).
I wonder if the 3 storey underground bunker will ever need to be reactivated.