Canada's strategic airlift capability megathread (CC177, CC130J, A400M?)

[ytz]

Rapid Dragon uses JASSMs. The range of those places any transport well out of range of adversary weapons. But now their AD has to worry about so many more approaches.

 

[GR66]

Germany plans 16 new A400M airlifters, a lifeline for the program

Germany plans to buy 16 more Airbus A400M military transport aircraft, the German Defense Ministry said Friday, giving Airbus new work for a production line that has been running short of orders. "The changes adopted allow us, among other things,

defence-blog.com

Germany plans to buy 16 more Airbus A400M military transport aircraft, the German Defense Ministry said Friday, giving Airbus new work for a production line that has been running short of orders.

Germany already has 53 A400Ms, the largest fleet of the type in the world. Airbus began handing them over in December 2014 and delivered the last one in April.

By March, Airbus had delivered 139 of the 178 A400Ms ordered by 10 countries, leaving 39 still to build. The company has been trying to keep production at about eight aircraft a year as that backlog shrinks, according to AFP.

So Airbus has 39 aircraft left to deliver from the original order plus this additional 16 (if approved) leaving at most 7 years of production assuming they maintain the rate of 8 per year.

The A400M is the only in production western aircraft capable of transporting a LAV. Should we get in queue while the production line is still going? In seven years when the production line is running out of orders our C-130J fleet will be approaching the quarter century mark.

Or do we instead join the push to re-open the C-17 production line by making a commitment to purchase a certain number if the decision to proceed is made?

Or do we do both with A400Ms to replace/augment our C-130J's and new C-17s to replace/augment/expand our current C-17 fleet?

 

[ytz]

We're not doing three airlift fleets. Bad enough we got the Kingfisher instead of stubby Hercs for SAR.

 

[Gordon Dundas/]

We're not doing three airlift fleets. Bad enough we got the Kingfisher instead of stubby Hercs for SAR.

In a couple more years with the possible exception of the VIP aircraft we may not have much a airlift fleet.
Well we can always go back to the tried and true expedient of renting Russian AN 124s and IL 76s....

 

[GR66]

We're not doing three airlift fleets. Bad enough we got the Kingfisher instead of stubby Hercs for SAR.

It's not about adding a 3rd airlift fleet it's about planning for the replacement of our current fleets. Our C-130Js are 15 years old. The bulk of our C-17's are approaching 20 years old and see very heavy use.

We should start planning for replacement fairly soon or we'll end up like we have with our fighters, naval ships and tanks...stuck with old, expensive to maintain platforms with replacements still years away.

 

[dapaterson]

In a couple more years with the possible exception of the VIP aircraft we may not have much a airlift fleet.
Well we can always go back to the tried and true expedient of renting Russian AN 124s and IL 76s....

The expanded MRTT fleet would beg to differ.

The types of cargo they can lift are not as varied as the C17, but they still have remarkable capacity.

 

[Gordon Dundas/]

It's not about adding a 3rd airlift fleet it's about planning for the replacement of our current fleets. Our C-130Js are 15 years old. The bulk of our C-17's are approaching 20 years old and see very heavy use.

We should start planning for replacement fairly soon or we'll end up like we have with our fighters, naval ships and tanks...stuck with old, expensive to maintain platforms with replacements still years away.

It's the Canadian way.....God help us.

 

[suffolkowner]

The expanded MRTT fleet would beg to differ.

The types of cargo they can lift are not as varied as the C17, but they still have remarkable capacity.

Is there a 330 that can handle heavy equipment?

 

[ytz]

The expanded MRTT fleet would beg to differ.

The types of cargo they can lift are not as varied as the C17, but they still have remarkable capacity.

My favourite stat. The 330MRTT is an 800% increase in offload capacity compared to the Polaris and 130T fleets being replaced.

Really solid buy. Hopefully there's a follow on order.

 

[Kirkhill]

My favourite stat. The 330MRTT is an 800% increase in offload capacity compared to the Polaris and 130T fleets being replaced.

Really solid buy. Hopefully there's a follow on order.

The follow on order?

A330-300P2F

A330P2F Freighter Airbus Passenger to Freighter conversion.

www.aircraft.airbus.com

 

[OldSolduer]

We should start planning for replacement fairly soon or we'll end up like we have with our fighters, naval ships and tanks...stuck with old, expensive to maintain platforms with replacements still years away.

This is the way.....

 

[ytz]

We should start planning for replacement fairly soon or we'll end up like we have with our fighters, naval ships and tanks...stuck with old, expensive to maintain platforms with replacements still years away.

No point until the tech transition is understood.

Tactical tanking is already moving to UAVs and away from manned aircraft. This is partly why we didn't replace the 130T with a manned tactical tanker. Especially when you start think of mixing buddy tanking with other roles.

Going forward, there's a growing recognition that airlift will not be survivable as they are today, in a world of much more capable sensors and ultra long range BVRAAM.

Stealthy Tanker-Transport Aircraft Concept Unveiled By Boeing

A new advanced airlifter concept from Boeing with stealth features reflects growing demand for more survivable cargo and tanker aircraft.

www.twz.com

We will keep buying top ups for our existing fleet until we have certainty on the tech pathways going forward.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My favourite stat. The 330MRTT is an 800% increase in offload capacity compared to the Polaris and 130T fleets being replaced.

Really solid buy. Hopefully there's a follow on order.

The MRTT deal is one that I have to give the JT Liberals as a solid win for them on defense, as I understand it, the geneses for this deal pre-dates Trumps 2nd term.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

No point until the tech transition is understood.

Tactical tanking is already moving to UAVs and away from manned aircraft. This is partly why we didn't replace the 130T with a manned tactical tanker. Especially when you start think of mixing buddy tanking with other roles.

Going forward, there's a growing recognition that airlift will not be survivable as they are today, in a world of much more capable sensors and ultra long range BVRAAM.

Stealthy Tanker-Transport Aircraft Concept Unveiled By Boeing

A new advanced airlifter concept from Boeing with stealth features reflects growing demand for more survivable cargo and tanker aircraft.

www.twz.com

We will keep buying top ups for our existing fleet until we have certainty on the tech pathways going forward.

Not sure the tech is going to slow down enough for any certainty. I agree tactical airlift is going to have to adapt, but it is still going to be useful and often vital. Cargo and aircraft handling at closer to the frontline is going to likely change with aircraft perhaps not even fully stopping to discharge cargo and not shutting down with emphasis on speed of unloading and loading and circulating those load and unload points around the airfield to reduce recognisable patterns from forming.

 

[GR66]

No point until the tech transition is understood.

Tactical tanking is already moving to UAVs and away from manned aircraft. This is partly why we didn't replace the 130T with a manned tactical tanker. Especially when you start think of mixing buddy tanking with other roles.

Going forward, there's a growing recognition that airlift will not be survivable as they are today, in a world of much more capable sensors and ultra long range BVRAAM.

Stealthy Tanker-Transport Aircraft Concept Unveiled By Boeing

A new advanced airlifter concept from Boeing with stealth features reflects growing demand for more survivable cargo and tanker aircraft.

www.twz.com

We will keep buying top ups for our existing fleet until we have certainty on the tech pathways going forward.

For a country the size of Canada that is also far from where we are likely to need to deploy our forces, the need to move things isn't going to change and while the MRTT is a great capability (and one I think we should get more of) we will also have the need to move things that don't fit in the MRTT and there will be the need to have a rough field landing capability.

 

[suffolkowner]

The MRTT deal is one that I have to give the JT Liberals as a solid win for them on defense, as I understand it, the geneses for this deal pre-dates Trumps 2nd term.

by a couple of years

 

[DBNSG]

My favourite stat. The 330MRTT is an 800% increase in offload capacity compared to the Polaris and 130T fleets being replaced.

Really solid buy. Hopefully there's a follow on order.

How many more 330's and C 130-J's could the Airforce Incorporate?

 

[ytz]

How many more 330's and C 130-J's could the Airforce Incorporate?

I mean we're expanding the force. So really we can and will just grow to accomodate as necessary.

I honestly question how many more Hercs we need, given how we use them. They just end up doing intratheatre moves in Europe. How much of that do we really need? Maybe a couple more aircraft would help putting more rubber on the ramp in Trenton.

I think the gap is really strategic lift. We didn't buy enough C-17s. In fact, we didn't even buy enough to get a simulator. So our pilors spend 30 days a year just traveling to do their Sims in Seattle. Ridiculous. That fleet should be at least double, if not triple the size.

On the Husky side. With 8 tankers and a VVIP bird, you get maybe 4-5 aircraft in each MOB. Each MOB has a minimum of 1-2 lines of task daily with NORAD and FG/training support (for the respective fighter wings). That's not a lot of room for deployments, surge, etc once you take into serviceability. Would be nice to see the fleet expand to at least 11. 12-13 would be better, with 5-6 frames per MOB.