Replacing the Subs

[IKnowNothing]

Forgive me if this has been asked before but if say we do get nuke subs, and I realize that is a huge if. Would the vics be usable in a training role? Would it be cheaper to train Sailors on the vics then transfer them to the nuke boats. I realize some trades wouldn't transfer but a lot of trades would.

SSN-AUKUS isn't scheduled to put a new nuc in Australia's hands until the early 40's.... in 2034 the Victoria's will be as old as Ojibwa was when the museum opened at Port Burwell

 

[Underway]

Any concern that the publicly stated endurance of the SK subs is 1/3 less than the publicly stated endurance of the Vic's?

Nope. When you dig into the numbers they are apples and oranges. Are they submerged or snorkelling endurances? What is the use case for endurance (speed, on batteries, on fuel cell etc...). Also the endurance is listed for the KSS-III block 1, not the block 2 or 3 which are larger

Also its not the only submarine out there. Germany and Norway are build subs, Dutch are building soon, Japan is building, Spain also. If endurance is an issue then pick one that works.

 

[Dana381]

Sort of, with all the money we spent on them everything but the Bell must be new by now

 

[KevinB]

SSN-AUKUS isn't scheduled to put a new nuc in Australia's hands until the early 40's.... in 2034 the Victoria's will be as old as Ojibwa was when the museum opened at Port Burwell

Agreed, and the whole concept of the SSN-AUKUS boats is crewing of the Virginia’s with split crews, then 100% Aussie crews. Given that model, I would think that if Canada was to join Pillar 1 of AUKUS (the SSN’s) that the same arrangement could be make for both Virginia and/or AUKUS boats.

 

[Kirkhill]

Anduril Industries is announcing a new manufacturing facility to support large-scale production of its Dive-LD family of autonomous underwater vehicles (AUVs) at Quonset Point, Rhode Island. By investing in a scaled production facility ahead of need, Anduril will be able to stay ahead of customer demand and deliver on orders with unprecedented speed.

AUVs are transforming maritime deterrence by providing an affordable, distributed, and adaptable undersea capability that complements the U.S. and allied submarine fleet. Developing, manufacturing, and fielding these systems at scale on an operationally-relevant timeline will be critical. The 100,000-150,000 square foot production facility will enable Anduril to immediately increase production capacity for its Dive-LD family of AUVs to more than 200 hulls per year. Anduril plans to create more than 100 jobs within five years of the facility opening in 2025.

Earlier this year, Anduril unveiled the first prototype Ghost Shark extra-large autonomous undersea vehicle, developed and delivered ahead of schedule and on-budget at its Sydney, Australia location in partnership with the Royal Australian Navy,

long-range, autonomous undersea capabilities, the Dive family of AUVs has emerged as the leading solution for a variety of missions, including operational preparation of the environment, surveillance and reconnaissance, mine warfare, subsea and seabed warfare, seafloor mapping, and more.

Anduril to Open Large Scale Production Facility for AUV - Naval News

Anduril to Open Large Scale Production Facility for Autonomous Underwater Vehicles. The factory announcement comes amid growing demand for...

www.navalnews.com

Ghost Shark operated in conjunction with ADV Guidance

ADV Guidance - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ghost Shark (submarine) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anduril Dive-LD

3D Printing of long range, multi-role autonomous vehicles

 

[suffolkowner]

Why is Endurance Important for a Canadian Submarine? – Vanguard

vanguardcanada.com

graphic in there with transit distances for perspective, not as clear as the Australian one unfortunately

 

[KevinB]

Why is Endurance Important for a Canadian Submarine? – Vanguard

vanguardcanada.com

graphic in there with transit distances for perspective, not as clear as the Australian one unfortunately

Or one could call it: why SSN’s make sense for Canada

 

[childs56]

If we were to get Nuke boats can we even afford the infrastructure required to support them?
I remember some training with the US a number of years ago. They had special security teams who travel to ports ahead of their subs to provide operational security.
They were not just a few Soldiers with guns. Those troops were well equipped, well trained with multiple levels of surveillance/communications and int resources, their own helicopters and assigned resources from the fleet.

The only teams in Canada right now who would come close to that is Special Forces and or the teams guarding the Civilian Nuke Plants we have.
As I was reading this thread this just popped into thoughts.

 

[GR66]

Or one could call it: why SSN’s make sense for Canada

While I agree that SSN's would be the best suited option for Canada from a technical point of view, however from a political, budgetary and practical point of view I think they are a no-go.

The political capital required to sell them to the Canadian public isn't something any of the political parties I think are willing to expend. And from a budgetary point of view SSN's would require taking money away from the many other vital capabilities that Canada is in the process of re-building/acquiring. Australia is already facing the reality of their AUKUS decision. What do we cut back on in order to be able to afford SSNs?...CSC's? NORAD modernization? F-35s? tanks? AD? MCDV replacements? Facilities? Some of all the above?

 

[YZT580]

buy SSN's and the next war will be long over before the first keel kisses the water. Shoulda coulda done that a long time ago with Mulroney but that ship sailed.

 

[stoker dave]

If we were to get Nuke boats can we even afford the infrastructure required to support them?

You are correct about the infrastructure. Nuclear security teams are similar to police SWAT units. Heavily armed (by Canadian standards), well trained and highly regulated.

Additional infrastructure requirements:

• Environmental monitoring.
• Emergency planning and response.
• Regulatory compliance.
• Training.
• Auditing and oversight.
• Radiation dosimetry and health physics.
• Radiation protection.
• Radioactive waste management (low, medium and high level).
• Document management.

A single unit nuclear generating station employs ~ 600 people.
The big stations (Pickering, Bruce, Darlington) employ many thousands. There is an army of contractors, engineers, technicians and trades that support the generating stations.

The regulatory requirements at a nuclear facility are HUGE. There is constant oversight and endless audits. Each audit produces findings each of which must be addressed and resolved (this can become an industry unto itself). The volume of documentation required is substantial: nothing happens without an approved procedure and work stops if the procedure can't be followed. All processes require extensive documentation to show the procedure was performed in accordance with approved procedures.

 

[GR66]

You are correct about the infrastructure. Nuclear security teams are similar to police SWAT units. Heavily armed (by Canadian standards), well trained and highly regulated.

Additional infrastructure requirements:

• Environmental monitoring.
• Emergency planning and response.
• Regulatory compliance.
• Training.
• Auditing and oversight.
• Radiation dosimetry and health physics.
• Radiation protection.
• Radioactive waste management (low, medium and high level).
• Document management.

A single unit nuclear generating station employs ~ 600 people.
The big stations (Pickering, Bruce, Darlington) employ many thousands. There is an army of contractors, engineers, technicians and trades that support the generating stations.

The regulatory requirements at a nuclear facility are HUGE. There is constant oversight and endless audits. Each audit produces findings each of which must be addressed and resolved (this can become an industry unto itself). The volume of documentation required is substantial: nothing happens without an approved procedure and work stops if the procedure can't be followed. All processes require extensive documentation to show the procedure was performed in accordance with approved procedures.

I suggested previously that the only way I could possibly see Canada operating SSNs would be to home base them in the US in order to avoid much of the above. However, I think you'd need a full shooting war with Russia and/or China before any Canadian government would even consider such an arrangement (and then it would be far too late to have any type of impact on the conflict)

 

[Underway]

Only way nuke boats make sense is if they get their own harbour facilities, away from the main naval bases. Possible on the East Coast as there are a few options not far away from Halifax. West Coast there are options but none that won't have brutal NIBY, environmental protestors and First Nations challenges.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Only way nuke boats make sense is if they get their own harbour facilities, away from the main naval bases. Possible on the East Coast as there are a few options not far away from Halifax. West Coast there are options but none that won't have brutal NIBY, environmental protestors and First Nations challenges.

Gold River (and its deep water port) enters the chat

Gold River Harbour, Vancouver Island, BC | Gohiking

The Gold River harbour is one of those places that will be the envy of the island after all the industries have been replaced by tourist-related operations.

gohiking.ca

 

[dimsum]

Gold River (and its deep water port) enters the chat

Gold River Harbour, Vancouver Island, BC | Gohiking

The Gold River harbour is one of those places that will be the envy of the island after all the industries have been replaced by tourist-related operations.

gohiking.ca

Unless Gold River village gets a huge building boom, 1h 15 min to Campbell River (in the summer) is a bit of a commute…

 

[KevinB]

Only way nuke boats make sense is if they get their own harbour facilities, away from the main naval bases. Possible on the East Coast as there are a few options not far away from Halifax. West Coast there are options but none that won't have brutal NIBY, environmental protestors and First Nations challenges.

I’d say that any SSN choice would take time — with split crewing for a while until the RCN got up to speed. So for that the boat pens down here in Kitsap WA, for the West Coast as the hike wouldn’t be that bad. It’s around 183km from Vancouver - and while the I5 sucks for traffic, I’d assume that it wouldn’t need to be a daily commute.

 

[dimsum]

I’d say that any SSN choice would take time — with split crewing for a while until the RCN got up to speed. So for that the boat pens down here in Kitsap WA, for the West Coast as the hike wouldn’t be that bad. It’s around 183km from Vancouver - and while the I5 sucks for traffic, I’d assume that it wouldn’t need to be a daily commute.

It would be an OUTCAN posting. We already have CAF folks in JBLM for the Western Area Defence Sector (WADS).

 

[stoker dave]

Gold River (and its deep water port) enters the chat

As noted above, supporting a fleet of SSNs requires huge infrastructure and much of that would have to be civilian.

As lovely as I am sure it is, I am not sure that the several hundred (or maybe several thousand) required nuclear industry professionals would give up their positions, seniority, pensions, homes, etc. to move to Gold River.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Unless Gold River village gets a huge building boom, 1h 15 min to Campbell River (in the summer) is a bit of a commute…

Fortunately, not being a SSN expert frees me up for wonderfully random option development

It would be a great opportunity for community building. There's a pretty motivated first nation there too, which might be keen to engage in economic development partnerships.

Port Alberni might be another option.

 

[childs56]

I would also look at Port Alice as a choice on the west coast. The fishing there is amazing and lots of room to build. If things went boom not much around. It is close to Port Hardy and Port Mcneill, did I mention the fishing is awesome.