Artillery NCM and Hearing Damage

[Patches]

Hello,

With my Reserve application process under way(the waiting begins) I naturally have some time on my hands to second guess my choice of trade (interspersed with some pre-learning on a few BMQ topics).

Once concern I'm having with one of my trade choices of gunner is the possibility of hearing damage and how that could affect me in the long term. So a few questions or concerns around that:
-is ear protection provided with your kit or is there some sort of reimbursement program to secure your own?
-is hearing damage still common if you're properly using the equipment at all times (I've heard at the decibels the guns are firing at it might only be partial protection?)
-is the majority of training and exercises done with live firing, or are any other tools(blank rounds, simulators, non firing exercises) done to reduce long term impacts.

Concerns aside, being on the gun line seems like a great way to support the other combat Arms and some of the specializations down the road very interesting too. So I'm torn.

Looking forward to some help and insight here. Thank you!

 

[FJAG]

Hi Patches

Old timer gunner here. I'm afraid to say there are no guarantees. Like many occupations, service in the army exposes you to loud noises, not just artillery, but artillery is definitely something where occasional very loud noise is experienced. I'll try to answer your questions:

-is ear protection provided with your kit or is there some sort of reimbursement program to secure your own?

Yes. Ear protection is provided and improved protection is provided as it becomes available.

-is hearing damage still common if you're properly using the equipment at all times (I've heard at the decibels the guns are firing at it might only be partial protection?)

I don't know if the term "common" is apt but "possible" for sure. Other things like moving in armoured vehicles also has very high noise levels and all too often personnel do not take the same level of care as on a live firing gun line.

-is the majority of training and exercises done with live firing,

No its not. Artillery units have several live fire exercises a year. The number of exercises varies between Regular Force and Reserve Force units and I would think that as a reservists you would probably take part in maybe four live fire exercises per year - more or less. Reserve units use 105mm howitzers at this point in time which have much lower noise levels than Regular Force 155mm howitzers. Both sometimes use 81mm mortars. In addition howitzers have variable charges with more charges used to achieve longer range. More charges = more noise. An exercise in Meaford, Ontario would for example be at a very low charge - 1 or 2 - while an exercise in Shilo, Manitoba might have you firing at charge 5, 6 or even 7. There are opportunities to work with RegF units which would expose you to even higher noise levels.

or are any other tools(blank rounds, simulators, non firing exercises) done to reduce long term impacts.

There are simulators for artillery observers and artillery gun lines also do "dry" training where no live rounds are fired. There are no blanks for the 155mm and blanks for 105mm are generally used only for firing ceremonial salutes which reserve units are involved in. There are blanks for various small arms like rifles and machine guns.

I don't want to scare you away from anything, but there currently medical consideration ongoing as to whether or not blast waves from firing heavy weapons - such as artillery - can lead to traumatic brain injury. There's a recent article here.

Concerns aside, being on the gun line seems like a great way to support the other combat Arms and some of the specializations down the road very interesting too. So I'm torn.

It's actually a really great job. I started as a young gunner in the Reserve Force and became an officer in the Regular Force because I felt it was a good thing to make a career of. There are many who have gone the same route that I have. I haven't regreted a day of it.

And yes. I do have some hearing damage - in my case tinnitus - for which I have received some Veterans' Affairs Canada compensation. I don't need an hearing aids (and I'm pretty old now) but those will be available through VAC if it should ever come to that. I know quite a few gunners with no hearing damage and some with; including worse than mine.

 

[KevinB]

FWIW I started as an Artilleryman. I had more hearing damage after I became a Patricia.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The good thing now is that hearing damage and prevention is taken seriously and you are not ridiculed for taking steps to prevent it. Plus the kit available to you is much better than we had.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Working the gun between the trails and wearing hearing protection is not a particularly loud environment.

 

[OldSolduer]

FWIW I started as an Artilleryman. I had more hearing damage after I became a Patricia.

That’s because you ran afoul of the CSM all the time

 

[Blackadder1916]

Prepare for the unexpected.

Thread 'Canadian artillery team gives soldier one hell of a wake up call'

24 Apr 2019

Canadian artillery team gives soldier one hell of a wake up call

by Alex Hollings · April 22, 2019

Serving in the military forces you to develop a number of unusual skill sets that aren’t necessarily specific to war-fighting, and many of them involve sleep. The ability to go for extended periods of time without rest becomes paramount in uniform, as does your ability to catch up on that sleep deficit at unusual times and in unusual places.

Most of us who have traded some part of our lives to our nations for a uniform have at least a story or two about napping in seemingly impossible...

• Retired AF Guy
• Replies: 16
• Forum: The Canadian Military

 

[KevinB]

Working the gun between the trails and wearing hearing protection is not a particularly loud environment.

Exactly.

Hearing damage occurs basically from two type of exposures to loud noises. Constant exposure to noise above a ‘hearing safe’ level, and also exposure to significantly high noise level even in an infrequent exposure, the worst is constant exposure to extremely high levels of noise.

Several different audiologists have nerd’d out to me at various times about noise exposure, and the frequency of those noises. As well one of my uncles did his PhD thesis on the hypersonic signature of a supersonic projectile, and the blast wave modeling he does currently is (well above my ability) extraordinary for both various hard structure assessments but also he did a lot with neurologists for TBI and also hearing issues with audiologists.

Carbine/Rifle and Machinegun fire, is much more damaging at short ranges due to the speed of the projectile. But the sound dissipates quickly as range from the bullet flight path increases as the projectile weight is low (also ensure you wear hearing protection if working the butts, as the sonic crack is well above hearing safe levels) while larger projectiles going slower can have a wave go much further. Subsonic projectiles still disrupt the air, and the muzzle gasses become supersonic as they combust with the atmosphere at the end of the muzzle, and of course muzzle brakes (if attached) redirect that energy.


For the TL;DR crowd, just wear hearing protection any time you will be around loud things…

 

[stoker dave]

For the TL;DR crowd, just wear hearing protection any time you will be around loud things…

Excellent advice.

In industry, if there is a noise hazard, wearing hearing protection is mandatory. Signs are posted saying that hearing protection is required in certain areas. Failure to wear hearing protection when required can get you fired.

Out of curiosity:

1. Is wearing of hearing protection mandatory in locations where justified? (Such as noisy machinery, artillery, small arms, etc.). Do you have procedures, signs, training, etc. that spell out when to wear hearing protection?
2. Do supervisors have the authority to order individuals to wear hearing protection in areas where such protection is mandated?

So if young Gunner Smith thinks wearing ear protection makes him look dorky and chooses not to wear hearing protection when required, can (whoever is in charge) order Gunner Smith to put on his hearing protection?

Thank you.

(Historically, wearing hearing protection in ship's machinery rooms was never favoured by the Chiefs and POs running those rooms. The noise levels were usually ear-damaging loud. They set the example and the younger folks didn't wear hearing protection either. I am sure a lot of those folks have degraded hearing as they age. I hope that situation has changed.)

 

[MedCorps]

Out of curiosity:

1. Is wearing of hearing protection mandatory in locations where justified? (Such as noisy machinery, artillery, small arms, etc.). Do you have procedures, signs, training, etc. that spell out when to wear hearing protection?
2. Do supervisors have the authority to order individuals to wear hearing protection in areas where such protection is mandated?

In terms of VAC claims hearing loss is the most costly thing overall to the Government of Canada. As such, there is a real interest in preventing it to the greatest extent possible.

1. Yes and more importantly is has become ingrained in field army culture, more than less. I have seen a remarkable change over the decades. Training is a hearing protection rich environment and pretty much every realizes when they should be wearing hearing protection. No reals signs. Certainly procedures.

2. Authority yes, responsibility and accountability to do so... also yes. If I came to a machine gun range and saw a troop not wearing hearing protection, I would hold the leadership accountable, especially if they did not have it in their possession (versus having it and opting not to use it) - 100% everyday of the week.

MC

 

[KevinB]

Excellent advice.

In industry, if there is a noise hazard, wearing hearing protection is mandatory. Signs are posted saying that hearing protection is required in certain areas. Failure to wear hearing protection when required can get you fired.

Out of curiosity:

1. Is wearing of hearing protection mandatory in locations where justified? (Such as noisy machinery, artillery, small arms, etc.). Do you have procedures, signs, training, etc. that spell out when to wear hearing protection?

Generally all range briefs mention ear and eye protection.

2. Do supervisors have the authority to order individuals to wear hearing protection in areas where such protection is mandated?

Yes

So if young Gunner Smith thinks wearing ear protection makes him look dorky and chooses not to wear hearing protection when required, can (whoever is in charge) order Gunner Smith to put on his hearing protection?

Yes

Thank you.

(Historically, wearing hearing protection in ship's machinery rooms was never favoured by the Chiefs and POs running those rooms. The noise levels were usually ear-damaging loud. They set the example and the younger folks didn't wear hearing protection either. I am sure a lot of those folks have degraded hearing as they age. I hope that situation has changed.)

Sometimes the stupidity was ordered.

Years ago back when I was still in the Artillery, a certain SSF Deputy Commander had a hard on for helmets, he would drive around the training areas in Petawawa looking for troops not wearing helmet and personally delivery a stuttering jacking. This included Artillery gun positions that one couldn’t wear the old ear defenders with the old helmet — eventually the CO of 2RCHA confronted him, and it went to the SSF Commander (then BGen Ernie Beno who was a gunner officer) and it got stopped.

Now Jimmy Cox was from The RCR and I’m sure he wasn’t mentally deficient to the point he didn’t care about the troops (albeit later when I was in Calgary as a Patricia, and he was the 1 CMBG Commander I’d question that many times), I just don’t think he thought that single earplugs didn’t do much for the pressure on the guns.

Now he did prove he was morally bankrupt when he made a Major (DH) take the fall for a training death that occurred when he and the CO of 1VP where on the range, but that is another story…

 

[stoker dave]

Thanks everyone for the information. It appears that hearing protection has significantly evolved and improved since my days.

@Patches : It appears that you may be exposed to loud noises but there are policies and procedures in place (and individuals to assure compliance with those policies and procedures) such that reasonable precautions are in place to protect your hearing.

 

[KevinB]

FWIW some weapon systems also require the use (or did) of double ear pro (plugs and ear muff type).
Range Standing Orders also used to (its been 21 years...) have protection protocols listed for various weapons.

Also hearing protection has gotten way way better, in terms of protection, form factor (fitting under/with helmets) and comfort.