All Things AB Separatism (split fm Liberal Minority Government 2025 - ???)

[Navy_Pete]

I think the "wait, you mean there's not going to be an Alberta Child Benefit/ Old Age Security?" is going to be scratch/record stop moment with some emotional and visceral reactions.

My thoughts keep coming back to this article

Ken Boessenkool: Alberta isn't conservative

Figure this out now, or risk losing Alberta to the NDP for a generation

www.readtheline.ca

There are a lot of Albertans open to the idea of separation.

A lot, like the Alberta Pension furor- like the idea of the fairy tale. Who wouldn't want all the benefits with none of the costs.
I think that, like the pension, less will like it when they see the financial reality, and the costs of that fairy tale.

The real question is how many like separation on principal, and would go forward for a more realistic personal financial/service status quo/slight improvement

I like how they think they would keep Canadian passports as a sovereign country, or that none of the treaties take precedence on territory they can claim as provincial (same as QC; the actual acknowledged land alone would leave Qc a patchwork at best).

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I like how they think they would keep Canadian passports as a sovereign country, or that none of the treaties take precedence on territory they can claim as provincial (same as QC; the actual acknowledged land alone would leave Qc a patchwork at best).

Most Treaties predate Alberta’s existence, which makes it a pretty shaky proposition to say you are taking first nations with you on separation.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Most Treaties predate Alberta’s existence, which makes it a pretty shaky proposition to say you are taking first nations with you on separation.

It's also much worse than QC; they would lose large parts of the province, including bits of Montreal, along the St. Lawrence, and I think key parts of the power generation side, but Alberta is almost entirely covered by Treaties 6,7 and 8, and the tribes have already told them to pound sand.

It's like thinking you can divorce but ignore the pre-nup, gat all the assests and leave all the liabilities behind, that never works.

 

[IKnowNothing]

I like how they think they would keep Canadian passports as a sovereign country, or that none of the treaties take precedence on territory they can claim as provincial (same as QC; the actual acknowledged land alone would leave Qc a patchwork at best).

Their policy doc also claims that they'll protect their retirees rightful entitlement to Canadian OAS

 

[brihard]

A point to note; Alberta separation would not mean stripping Canadian citizenship. On the contrary, no power of Canadian law could or would do that. Newly born Albertans would simply be subject to Canadian citizenship law as it pertains to anyone else born outside of Canada if they’re born to Canadian citizens. Any Canadian citizens resident in Alberta would still be entitled to a Canadian passport. Canadian benefits that are payable to expatriate Canadians, such as OAS, would continue to be.

 

[Good2Golf]

Their policy doc also claims that they'll protect their retirees rightful entitlement to Canadian OAS

Their policies are writing cheques their new treasury can’t cash…

 

[KevinB]

Their policies are writing cheques their new treasury can’t cash…
View attachment 93277

So generally all Western nations politicians…

 

[Good2Golf]

So generally all Western nations politicians…

Only the magnitude of the cheque’s gap varies…

 

[The Bread Guy]

Most Treaties predate Alberta’s existence, which makes it a pretty shaky proposition to say you are taking first nations with you on separation.

And while some here have suggested AB could cut a new, perhaps better, deal with FN's, well, if those believers think they'll get away with spending less money than Club Fed to make all FNs agree to move away from a Treaty in place since before AB was, I wish them good luck.

 

[lenaitch]

A point to note; Alberta separation would not mean stripping Canadian citizenship. On the contrary, no power of Canadian law could or would do that. Newly born Albertans would simply be subject to Canadian citizenship law as it pertains to anyone else born outside of Canada if they’re born to Canadian citizens. Any Canadian citizens resident in Alberta would still be entitled to a Canadian passport. Canadian benefits that are payable to expatriate Canadians, such as OAS, would continue to be.

Agree about citizenship; OAS not so much but it would be an interesting court fight. A case could likely be made for CPP because a working person has made contributions to the fund throughout their working life. OAS is paid out of general revenue.

Constitution 94 and 94A make reference to provincial legislation; but AB would no longer be a province.

 

[Remius]

Agree about citizenship; OAS not so much but it would be an interesting court fight. A case could likely be made for CPP because a working person has made contributions to the fund throughout their working life. OAS is paid out of general revenue.

Constitution 94 and 94A make reference to provincial legislation; but AB would no longer be a province.

Guaranteed that citizenship can’t be stripped or what not. But I am almost certain that the feds would change citizenship rules after any separation to make it very hard for kids and grandkids to be getting it.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Guaranteed that citizenship can’t be stripped or what not. But I am almost certain that the feds would change citizenship rules after any separation to make it very hard for kids and grandkids to be getting it.

Maintaining citizenship may not be guaranteed. An example would be Newfoundland. While we had been our own dominion at one time, on March 31, 1949 we were a British Crown possession and those who had been born there or naturalized were British subjects, i.e. had a right to a British passport and right to remain in the UK. The next day all those British subjects ordinarily resident in Newfoundland became Canadian citizens. However, even Canadians were "British subjects" into the sixties (but without that access to a British passport et al), but as the concept of Canadian/British citizenship evolved, along with the law, the British subjectness dropped away. Those Newfoundlanders, who at one time would have would have had a right to UK citizenship, no longer enjoy that benefit.

While citizenship of Albertans in a notional separate country would be the subject of negotiation, an uneducated reading of Canadian citizenship law would suggest that the outcome of that negotiation could leave only those who had been born in a Canadian province other than Alberta with Canadian citizenship.

Citizenship Act

Federal laws of Canada

laws-lois.justice.gc.ca

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think any region/province/territory that secedes from Canada, should not be able to use governmental, monetary, defence or administrative systems of the Nation of Canada.

 

[QV]

I missed the part where Toronto screwed Albertans by voting Notley in as Premier…

You didn't miss it.... it was never there. There is plenty of blame to go around, including self blame for electing an NDP government.

 

[QV]

I think any region/province/territory that secedes from Canada, should not be able to use governmental, monetary, defence or administrative systems of the Nation of Canada.

Exactly. Complete severance.

 

[Good2Golf]

You didn't miss it.... it was never there. There is plenty of blame to go around, including self blame for electing an NDP government.

And the Heritage Fund was robbed often, holding growth way down from Peter Lougheed’s vision…although his son Joe, has been assigned to operate a spin-off Heritage Fund-related Crown Corporation to invest AB government contributions from general revenues. Performance of the fund in the coming years would be a good indicator of Alberta has the ability to manage its own state-like affairs as an independent nation.

 

[Blackadder1916]

A point to note; Alberta separation would not mean stripping Canadian citizenship. On the contrary, no power of Canadian law could or would do that. Newly born Albertans would simply be subject to Canadian citizenship law as it pertains to anyone else born outside of Canada if they’re born to Canadian citizens. Any Canadian citizens resident in Alberta would still be entitled to a Canadian passport. Canadian benefits that are payable to expatriate Canadians, such as OAS, would continue to be.

See my previous post as to "citizenship", however financial benefits (e.g. CPP, OAS, GIS) are not necessarily tied to citizenship but also to legal residency. There are a minimum number of years of residency in Canada that establish eligibility to receive OAS even if one is no longer resident in Canada. However, as CPP and OAS are taxable income (and OAS is means tested) individuals (even those residing outside Canada) would have to file Canadian income tax returns.

 

[brihard]

Agree about citizenship; OAS not so much but it would be an interesting court fight. A case could likely be made for CPP because a working person has made contributions to the fund throughout their working life. OAS is paid out of general revenue.

Constitution 94 and 94A make reference to provincial legislation; but AB would no longer be a province.

See my previous post as to "citizenship", however financial benefits (e.g. CPP, OAS, GIS) are not necessarily tied to citizenship but also to legal residency. There are a minimum number of years of residency in Canada that establish eligibility to receive OAS even if one is no longer resident in Canada. However, as CPP and OAS are taxable income (and OAS is means tested) individuals (even those residing outside Canada) would have to file Canadian income tax returns.

Yup, when I said “payable to”, I mean that in the sense of under the laws as they apply to expatriates. A Canadian citizen living outside of Canada can under specific criteria continue to qualify for such payments- Blackadder expounded on that in greater detail.

No reason the rules for Canadian expats in Alberta would be different from the rules for Canadian expats in Australia or Panama, save for where specific treaties (like tax treaties) apply something different.

I don’t see any legal argument to be made that Canadians born in Alberta prior to any hypothetical secession would lose citizenship. Nothing in our law lets that citizenship be stripped. I could see there being an expedited process set up to renounce citizenship for those who wish to be Albertan only… But I bet uptake would be low.

 

[Jarnhamar]

There was a lot of talk about US invasion and Canadians becoming insurgents, making the US pay for every inch of ground in blood and so on.

I wonder if these same Canadians will be as ready to do violence against Albertans should they actually separate.

 

[KevinB]

There was a lot of talk about US invasion and Canadians becoming insurgents, making the US pay for every inch of ground in blood and so on.

Lots of people who have never seen a shot fired in anger, or don’t understand how easy it is these days to identify, isolate and eliminate people.

I wonder if these same Canadians will be as ready to do violence against Albertans should they actually separate.

I’m curious what the Alberta Defense Force Montana chapter would think about that as well.