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CAF Security Forces [Split from RCN Anti Drone Weapon]

I agree entirely on the need for a bigger boat. Where can I find one and how soon is it available?
You can’t afford it. Nor should you try.
What is that Ukraine plan? Or the Iran plan?
You constantly try to force Canada into situations it isn’t in.

I would like to believe that somebody, someplace has applied some thought to how to manage the situation when everything goes pear-shaped.
My sense is that we have wandered between "It will never happen" and "We can't do anything about it anyway".
We had a plan to invade the States once. Highly improbable. But we had a plan.
I’m sure there is a concept of operations for something like this - but it isn’t rush out and make 100 CUAS Batteries.

There is a rumour out there, along with the 20% pay raise, and a budget increase to 5% of GDP, of the Primary Reserve (to supply in-fills for the Regs) being expanded to 100,000 and a volunteer force of 300,000 being raised. About 1 % of Canada's population.

Lets assume that there are about 100 armouries and Naval Reserve Divisions available. The means that each establishment would have to track 1000 trained reservists and 3000 of the untrained but willing. Presumably each establishment would be tasked with generating a useful sub-unit of 100 or so out of those 4000 people on their roles.

I. I happen to like the rumour. I think it is heading in the right direction with the numbers.
2. How might a body of that strength be employed in different circumstances.
3. How do we build on that?

WW2 saw 1.1 million in uniform out of a population of 11 million - 10%.
Another million or so worked in defence industries - another 10%
Then there were the people on the government payroll.

We have a rumour of a notion to employ 1% of the population in an emergency
In WW2 we actually employed 10 times that.

Ukraine is believed to have an active force of 900,000 personnel and a reserve force of 1,200,000 personnel for a total of 2,100,000 or a bit over 5% of the population. Living in a hot war, and holding the enemy to a draw the Ukrainians are using half the amount of people that we employed in WW2 fighting a war in other peoples' countries.

Why shouldn't there be a plan?
Because Canada is a liberal democracy. It isn’t a police state.

Having a professional security detachment to guard facilities is a lot different than creating the appearance of an occupied country.

One should base plans against the most likely actions and work one’s way down the priority list as long as their are funds. What you shouldn’t do is jump onto one idea and rush blindly at it.
 
You can’t afford it. Nor should you try.

Good enough. I'll stop worrying my pretty little head about it. We have professionals to manage that. And if they fail then Uncle Sam will sort it out.

You constantly try to force Canada into situations it isn’t in.

I don't worry about the situation Canada IS in. My concern is for the many situations Canada MIGHT BE in.

Your nation has a 400 year history of crisis management.

Your crisis management system begins with a stout house and a gun over the door.
It progressed to a rudimentary minuteman system where the locals gathered their guns in times of crisis.
The communities then started to engage some of their number on an on-going basis as rangers to patrol the outskirts.
Those elements all came together as the State Militias.
The collective State Militias became the National Guard.
That is your first "Army".

In 1775 an army formed from the State Militias was raised for the duration. It stood down in 1783.
The permanent force was reduced to a border force of about 3000 divided into four regional regiments and an artillery regiment.
The key elements of the crisis management system was a system of arsenals, a means of training all the militias to a uniform standard and a professional academy for the ordnance: guns and engineers.
Like the earlier rangers it was raised to manage the borders.
That was its primary function up until 1917 when Black Jack Pershing was pulled off the Mexican border and sent to France.

WWI was a bit of a stutter step in that after the war the army pretty much reverted to status quo ante.
But in 1941 the army got another shot and never looked back.
If it was still honouring its roots as a border force then the borders now covered the globe.

The Regular Army is your second "Army".

Like the rest of the Army the Marines were raised in 1775. They were raised for seagoing service with the Navy.
Like the rest of the Army they were stood down in 1783.

The Marines were re-raised in 1798 for foreign service with the newly formed Navy anticipating action against revolutionary France.
Ultimately the Marines and the Navy became permanent arms of the President's Department of State and instruments of foreign policy.

The Marines are your third "Army".

....

All these elements, from the citizen with the gun, through the Guard, to the Army, to the Marines are all available to your nation for crisis management.

My sense of Canada is that Canada is trying to manage crises on the cheap, without expending the cash, and without taking the personal responsiblity.

It is relying on a poor man's version of the Marine Corps, an essentially expeditionary force that can be applied by the executive in a discretionary manner to manage all crises, foreign and domestic.

And that is asking too much of what it is.

I’m sure there is a concept of operations for something like this - but it isn’t rush out and make 100 CUAS Batteries.

I don't share you confidence in the existence of a conops for this situation, or for many others. And I have no problem being told there is a better plan than 100 CUAS Batteries. We have armed officers in the Coast Guard. Maybe we can arm NavCan to keep the geese and drones at bay.


Because Canada is a liberal democracy. It isn’t a police state.
A standing army is more indicative of a police state than an organized citizenry. That was established in 1689 and reiterated in 1776.

Having a professional security detachment to guard facilities is a lot different than creating the appearance of an occupied country.
Agreed. Whether they were called rangers, or constables, or whatever there has always been a recognized need for "border" forces. And those necessarily act in both civil and military capacities. I would like to know that those federal compounds, those cantonments, critical to the life and defence of my country were adequately defended from all threats.

And I put that at a higher priority than funding an expeditionary force.

One should base plans against the most likely actions and work one’s way down the priority list as long as their are funds. What you shouldn’t do is jump onto one idea and rush blindly at it.

Plans and Funds are two separate things. Even if you don't have funds you can still make plans. Funds will follow perceived risk.
If people believe the threat, the danger, is real then they will divert resources to deal with it. But the first thing they are going to ask is "How do you fix this?"

Having plans for the improbable is no bad thing.

Known knowns, known unknowns, unknown unknowns.

The more the planning the fewer the unknown uknowns, the fewer the surprises.
 
2 or 3 years ago 50% of the CAF members releasing in Petawawa were medical releases.

If you take a look at reddits CAF page every 3rd or 4th post is about someone injured, needing VAC, or medically releasing.

Multiple platoons in the CAF have more members on MELs than without MELs.


I'm not sure if I'd call it an epidemic but there's definitely something going on in the CAF with medical releases and injuries. That needs to be addressed if we're serious about growing our numbers, including new security units and trades.
 
2 or 3 years ago 50% of the CAF members releasing in Petawawa were medical releases.

If you take a look at reddits CAF page every 3rd or 4th post is about someone injured, needing VAC, or medically releasing.

Multiple platoons in the CAF have more members on MELs than without MELs.


I'm not sure if I'd call it an epidemic but there's definitely something going on in the CAF with medical releases and injuries. That needs to be addressed if we're serious about growing our numbers, including new security units and trades.

Inadequate physical preparation of youngsters with little sports history?
 
Good enough. I'll stop worrying my pretty little head about it. We have professionals to manage that. And if they fail then Uncle Sam will sort it out.



I don't worry about the situation Canada IS in. My concern is for the many situations Canada MIGHT BE in.

Your nation has a 400 year history of crisis management.

Your crisis management system begins with a stout house and a gun over the door.
It progressed to a rudimentary minuteman system where the locals gathered their guns in times of crisis.
The communities then started to engage some of their number on an on-going basis as rangers to patrol the outskirts.
Those elements all came together as the State Militias.
The collective State Militias became the National Guard.
That is your first "Army".

In 1775 an army formed from the State Militias was raised for the duration. It stood down in 1783.
The permanent force was reduced to a border force of about 3000 divided into four regional regiments and an artillery regiment.
The key elements of the crisis management system was a system of arsenals, a means of training all the militias to a uniform standard and a professional academy for the ordnance: guns and engineers.
Like the earlier rangers it was raised to manage the borders.
That was its primary function up until 1917 when Black Jack Pershing was pulled off the Mexican border and sent to France.

WWI was a bit of a stutter step in that after the war the army pretty much reverted to status quo ante.
But in 1941 the army got another shot and never looked back.
If it was still honouring its roots as a border force then the borders now covered the globe.

The Regular Army is your second "Army".

Like the rest of the Army the Marines were raised in 1775. They were raised for seagoing service with the Navy.
Like the rest of the Army they were stood down in 1783.

The Marines were re-raised in 1798 for foreign service with the newly formed Navy anticipating action against revolutionary France.
Ultimately the Marines and the Navy became permanent arms of the President's Department of State and instruments of foreign policy.

The Marines are your third "Army".

....

All these elements, from the citizen with the gun, through the Guard, to the Army, to the Marines are all available to your nation for crisis management.

My sense of Canada is that Canada is trying to manage crises on the cheap, without expending the cash, and without taking the personal responsiblity.

It is relying on a poor man's version of the Marine Corps, an essentially expeditionary force that can be applied by the executive in a discretionary manner to manage all crises, foreign and domestic.

And that is asking too much of what it is.



I don't share you confidence in the existence of a conops for this situation, or for many others. And I have no problem being told there is a better plan than 100 CUAS Batteries. We have armed officers in the Coast Guard. Maybe we can arm NavCan to keep the geese and drones at bay.



A standing army is more indicative of a police state than an organized citizenry. That was established in 1689 and reiterated in 1776.


Agreed. Whether they were called rangers, or constables, or whatever there has always been a recognized need for "border" forces. And those necessarily act in both civil and military capacities. I would like to know that those federal compounds, those cantonments, critical to the life and defence of my country were adequately defended from all threats.

And I put that at a higher priority than funding an expeditionary force.



Plans and Funds are two separate things. Even if you don't have funds you can still make plans. Funds will follow perceived risk.
If people believe the threat, the danger, is real then they will divert resources to deal with it. But the first thing they are going to ask is "How do you fix this?"

Having plans for the improbable is no bad thing.

Known knowns, known unknowns, unknown unknowns.

The more the planning the fewer the unknown uknowns, the fewer the surprises.
You have CSIS, the RCMP and other entities that can deal with preemptive threats.
An ounce of prevention is going to be worth more than a ton of cure in this respect.

You should have layered security for facilitate that require it.

I do not foresee the need for 100 Companies of QRF forces equipped to repel ground assaults and aerial threats around Canada at this particular time.

Outside certain National Security areas down here there is only one civilian area that has any sort of AD/CUAS capability enabled - and that is in DC. I don't think it would be an unreasonable thing for Canada to setup something around Parliament and and as needed Ottawa International - and the Airport Parkway/Bronson/Sparks road route as required for VVIP transit (we bubble Reagan inside the NCR zone, while it would be impractical to attempt to permanently bubble the area from Parliament to Ottawa Int for you guys.

But you also don't even take the security of your PM seriously with the numbers and assets allocated so...
 
You have CSIS, the RCMP and other entities that can deal with preemptive threats.
An ounce of prevention is going to be worth more than a ton of cure in this respect.

You should have layered security for facilitate that require it.

I do not foresee the need for 100 Companies of QRF forces equipped to repel ground assaults and aerial threats around Canada at this particular time.

Outside certain National Security areas down here there is only one civilian area that has any sort of AD/CUAS capability enabled - and that is in DC. I don't think it would be an unreasonable thing for Canada to setup something around Parliament and and as needed Ottawa International - and the Airport Parkway/Bronson/Sparks road route as required for VVIP transit (we bubble Reagan inside the NCR zone, while it would be impractical to attempt to permanently bubble the area from Parliament to Ottawa Int for you guys.

But you also don't even take the security of your PM seriously with the numbers and assets allocated so...

The biggest threat to Canadian aircraft is still wild game and bird strikes ...

 
You should have [appropriate] security for [targets] that require it.
. . .
But you also don't even take the security of your PM seriously with the numbers and assets allocated so...

Why would you raise that last point when you addressed it several lines previously in your post?
 
I dont think I would agree with the premise either. PM protection seems perfectly adequate. Heck how many PMs have been shot compared to American presidents? Maybe they're the inadequately protected.
 
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Good enough. I'll stop worrying my pretty little head about it. We have professionals to manage that. And if they fail then Uncle Sam will sort it out.











Plans and Funds are two separate things. Even if you don't have funds you can still make plans. Funds will follow perceived risk.
If people believe the threat, the danger, is real then they will divert resources to deal with it. But the first thing they are going to ask is "How do you fix this?"

Having plans for the improbable is no bad thing.

Known knowns, known unknowns, unknown unknowns.

The more the planning the fewer the unknown uknowns, the fewer the surprises.
Having plans is great but they need to be grounded in reality and exercised. You could have a plan to activate 1000 reservists or 'civilian guards' to do something for an indefinite period of time, which is fine under their employers say 'the hell you are'. The federal Emergencies Act enables some extra-ordinary powers, but will still live under a Constitution. If there was a credible Red Dawn type threat to Canadian domestic infrastructure, I might be more concerned.

This is what happens when "good idea" fairies (who are often woefully short sighted) "freelance" this sort of stuff without thinking it through.
Our daughter is an NPF employee on a CAF base and this seems to be a perennial problem with their annual Base Security exercises. The Command team seems to expect civilians, civilian employees and contractors to be engaged and play along. Announcing 'active shooter' over the PA system is a little disconcerting to a bunch of daycare parents.

The push-pull gets a little silly. The Base Commander can issue a stand-down for bad weather or something but her management chain has said the BC can't direct NPF employees until, it seems, it is convenient for management to say the BC is in charge. It's weird and frustrating for her.
 
Having plans is great but they need to be grounded in reality and exercised. You could have a plan to activate 1000 reservists or 'civilian guards' to do something for an indefinite period of time, which is fine under their employers say 'the hell you are'. The federal Emergencies Act enables some extra-ordinary powers, but will still live under a Constitution. If there was a credible Red Dawn type threat to Canadian domestic infrastructure, I might be more concerned.


Our daughter is an NPF employee on a CAF base and this seems to be a perennial problem with their annual Base Security exercises. The Command team seems to expect civilians, civilian employees and contractors to be engaged and play along. Announcing 'active shooter' over the PA system is a little disconcerting to a bunch of daycare parents.

The push-pull gets a little silly. The Base Commander can issue a stand-down for bad weather or something but her management chain has said the BC can't direct NPF employees until, it seems, it is convenient for management to say the BC is in charge. It's weird and frustrating for her.

Alot can be accomplished with a simple one hour 'walk through talk through' without all the dramatic exercise play, but most people don't get trained in how to do that...
 
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