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I have always marvelled the great difference economically between the Dominican Republic and Haiti.
Royal Canadian Air Force headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
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One has a Spanish ethos, the other one French. Haiti went from being one of France's most profitable colonial holdings.... to having the lowest Human Development Index in the Americas.Rifleman62 said:
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:dunno:Old Sweat said:
I'll defer to your experience. :-*
daftandbarmy
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Old Sweat said:
Until the much vaunted 'slave revolt', which subsequently killed their economy but made them the heroes of 'left whingers' everywhere....
Old Sweat said:
1880 to 1911 under a new constitution, Haiti was stable and wealthy It introduced the rum and sugar industry modernization to Latin America and was a model of Caribbean agriculture. Excessive borrowing and indebtedness to the US resulted in US occupation and a steady decline afterward. Interestingly, Woodrow Wilson, often lionized for his principled government by the US left, is responsible for that policy.
daftandbarmy
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Journeyman said:
You're kidding, right?
It's a raison d'etre COA for Les Forces Armees Canadiens.
On Les auras!
medicineman
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daftandbarmy said:You're kidding, right?
It's a raison d'etre COA for Les Forces Armees Canadiens.
On Les auras!
Then Les Farces Armee de Quebec can continue going there should they please...I'd swim home if I had a plane that got delayed there longer than a minute or two.
MM
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There is actually a case to be made for some sort of intervention in Haiti, but it will probably not be to the taste of Liberals or "liberals" anywhere, since essentially the only COA is to take over the place like the US Marines did in the first third of the 20th century and literally create new institutions from scratch. (Read Max Boot's "The Savage Wars of Peace"
Now while the Marines were there for the larger American strategic aim of preventing European colonization or influence threatening the approaches to the Panama Canal (the same considerations applied to Nicaragua in the west), they did create efficient systems of schools, customs services, postal services, road building, revenue collection and so on. The essential issue is that in the 1900's to 1930's, the modern idea of "nation building" did not exist, and the Americans seem to have assumed the locals would absorb American culture and systems through osmosis. Sadly, when they left for good in 1934, the locals simply stole everything that wasn't nailed down....
For our purposes, leveling whatever dysfunctional institutions that exist in Haiti and replacing them with "our" social, political and economic constructs would also imply a generational program to raise and train local Haitians to carry on using and maintaining them (or alternatively exporting Haitian-Canadians to Haiti to run the place and train locals). Britain took over 200 years to create Anglosphere institutions across the world (with mixed success) using these sorts of methods, so this won't be an easy sell for Canadian taxpayers.
This also isn't a job for the Armed Forces.
If we are to go into Africa as a military, I would hope it would be to kick down the door, smash groups like Boko Harum or their analogues and provide enough of a shield to allow the "nation builders" to start their work. Once again, there is a case to be made for committing resources for many decades to make it work.
As a side bar, I would also point to Neil Ferguson's "Civilization, the West and the Rest"]"
Now while the Marines were there for the larger American strategic aim of preventing European colonization or influence threatening the approaches to the Panama Canal (the same considerations applied to Nicaragua in the west), they did create efficient systems of schools, customs services, postal services, road building, revenue collection and so on. The essential issue is that in the 1900's to 1930's, the modern idea of "nation building" did not exist, and the Americans seem to have assumed the locals would absorb American culture and systems through osmosis. Sadly, when they left for good in 1934, the locals simply stole everything that wasn't nailed down....
For our purposes, leveling whatever dysfunctional institutions that exist in Haiti and replacing them with "our" social, political and economic constructs would also imply a generational program to raise and train local Haitians to carry on using and maintaining them (or alternatively exporting Haitian-Canadians to Haiti to run the place and train locals). Britain took over 200 years to create Anglosphere institutions across the world (with mixed success) using these sorts of methods, so this won't be an easy sell for Canadian taxpayers.
This also isn't a job for the Armed Forces.
If we are to go into Africa as a military, I would hope it would be to kick down the door, smash groups like Boko Harum or their analogues and provide enough of a shield to allow the "nation builders" to start their work. Once again, there is a case to be made for committing resources for many decades to make it work.
As a side bar, I would also point to Neil Ferguson's "Civilization, the West and the Rest" which makes a similar argument except that instead of creating and fostering social and political institutions, Ferguson's argument is that the "killer apps" of Western civilization (competition, science, the rule of law, modern medicine, consumerism, and the work ethic) can be imported and used by other cultures without necessarily tying them to the social, political and economic norms of "the West". So do "we" want to import our "killer apps" without necessarily importing our norms as well?
If we are going to argue about ideas like "Peacekeeping" we really should be grounding them to "effects" on the ground and how they support Canada's National Interest, rather than short term political gamesmanship. We all know this is about as likely as me winning the multi million dollar 6/49 grand prize.......
Now while the Marines were there for the larger American strategic aim of preventing European colonization or influence threatening the approaches to the Panama Canal (the same considerations applied to Nicaragua in the west), they did create efficient systems of schools, customs services, postal services, road building, revenue collection and so on. The essential issue is that in the 1900's to 1930's, the modern idea of "nation building" did not exist, and the Americans seem to have assumed the locals would absorb American culture and systems through osmosis. Sadly, when they left for good in 1934, the locals simply stole everything that wasn't nailed down....
For our purposes, leveling whatever dysfunctional institutions that exist in Haiti and replacing them with "our" social, political and economic constructs would also imply a generational program to raise and train local Haitians to carry on using and maintaining them (or alternatively exporting Haitian-Canadians to Haiti to run the place and train locals). Britain took over 200 years to create Anglosphere institutions across the world (with mixed success) using these sorts of methods, so this won't be an easy sell for Canadian taxpayers.
This also isn't a job for the Armed Forces.
If we are to go into Africa as a military, I would hope it would be to kick down the door, smash groups like Boko Harum or their analogues and provide enough of a shield to allow the "nation builders" to start their work. Once again, there is a case to be made for committing resources for many decades to make it work.
As a side bar, I would also point to Neil Ferguson's "Civilization, the West and the Rest"]"
Now while the Marines were there for the larger American strategic aim of preventing European colonization or influence threatening the approaches to the Panama Canal (the same considerations applied to Nicaragua in the west), they did create efficient systems of schools, customs services, postal services, road building, revenue collection and so on. The essential issue is that in the 1900's to 1930's, the modern idea of "nation building" did not exist, and the Americans seem to have assumed the locals would absorb American culture and systems through osmosis. Sadly, when they left for good in 1934, the locals simply stole everything that wasn't nailed down....
For our purposes, leveling whatever dysfunctional institutions that exist in Haiti and replacing them with "our" social, political and economic constructs would also imply a generational program to raise and train local Haitians to carry on using and maintaining them (or alternatively exporting Haitian-Canadians to Haiti to run the place and train locals). Britain took over 200 years to create Anglosphere institutions across the world (with mixed success) using these sorts of methods, so this won't be an easy sell for Canadian taxpayers.
This also isn't a job for the Armed Forces.
If we are to go into Africa as a military, I would hope it would be to kick down the door, smash groups like Boko Harum or their analogues and provide enough of a shield to allow the "nation builders" to start their work. Once again, there is a case to be made for committing resources for many decades to make it work.
As a side bar, I would also point to Neil Ferguson's "Civilization, the West and the Rest" which makes a similar argument except that instead of creating and fostering social and political institutions, Ferguson's argument is that the "killer apps" of Western civilization (competition, science, the rule of law, modern medicine, consumerism, and the work ethic) can be imported and used by other cultures without necessarily tying them to the social, political and economic norms of "the West". So do "we" want to import our "killer apps" without necessarily importing our norms as well?
If we are going to argue about ideas like "Peacekeeping" we really should be grounding them to "effects" on the ground and how they support Canada's National Interest, rather than short term political gamesmanship. We all know this is about as likely as me winning the multi million dollar 6/49 grand prize.......
daftandbarmy
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Thucydides said:
And, of course, this would need to be done within the context of maintaining and strengthening the institutions and culture surrounding the Islamic faith or, like we have seen elsewhere, we will become the enemy of everyone and not just the 'bad guys'.
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That bit in yellow can't happen, no matter what colour government Canada has -- most parties think in terms of mandates, not decades.Thucydides said:
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daftandbarmy said:
There are three perfectly good Islamic alternatives that are worth supporting as alternatives to both Sunni and Shia Islam:
The Hashemite family of the Kingdom of Jordan who trace their lineage back to the Great Grandfather of the Prophet
The Ibadi faith, originating 20 years after the Prophet's death and before both the Sunni and Shia faiths, followed by the Sultan of Oman's family
The Ismaili faith, a branch of Shia, followed by the Aga Khan, a direct lineal descendent of Mohammed (host of PM Trudeau).
All of those gentlemen should be tightly engaged, supported and encouraged by the OECD as alternatives to both Iranian Shia and Wahabbi Sunna. Pakistan used to be a pro-Western, liberal country, just as Persia and Afghanistan were.
They have credentials that deserve to be supported.
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Haiti sounds like the ideal place for muslim immigration.
Colin Parkinson
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Well Hati is full of "African like people" and a shorter logistical tail, plus they speak French, so it's a good substitute for the real thing and sort of , kind of fills the promise sort of.....in a very Liberal Party kind of way.
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Loachman said:
You don't. The point is to substitute a different "power source" by publicly going to these groups (not the Shiite or Sunni groups) whenever you need a sound bite, a public statement or someone from "The Islamic Community" for a photo op. You go to these groups when you are trying to write policy or understand the effects of your proposed policies. People will see who "The Strong Horse" is, at least in Canada, and while I don't think you will see mass conversions you will see a gradual delegitimization of many of the more radical groups, apologists and fronts like CAIR.
Turning the same thing on deployment will insert more options for the locals, many of whom are probably already suffering from the effects of their "traditional" overlords.
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