2023 UCP Alberta election

[Booter]

Question - Do the Feds subsidize the OPP and SdQ? Because I would think those two provinces would have a legit beef that their provincial police are not subsidized while the other provinces are. And further to this, why would the Feds stop subsidizing provincial police? No RCMP contracting police means less requirement for RCMP members as those members would be focused on National Policing, but the same amount of money would be available to the provincial forces.
As for local police, would the cops in the AOR of SW MB need to be booted and spurred to the level of Tier 2 SOF? There is a pile of money wasted there.

You understand the most violent communities in Canada statistically are First Nations communities in remote rural places?

The whole sof comparison you’re making is nonsense. Again. Specialized resources are hubbed and delivered as needed to those rural places. Two police officers in a car covering hundreds of square Kms is as lean a HR model as you can have. The money wasted in police work isn’t the rural detachments.

RCMP contracts have a further federal subsidy that provincial agencies don’t get. They may be subsidized in some way by the province in a similar fashion.

Generally speaking. The rcmp member in the room is the cheapest option for a community because of these subsidies. This is why the communities in Alberta, and municipalities, are against the idea- because it will 100% of the time increase their costs. Mounties are cheaper. Less cheap now- but still cheaper.

Unless the Alberta government creates a similar provincial subsidy to use their officers it will be an increase in costs- where it already eats up over 50% of their tax money. (RCMP and enforcement services averages half to near half of their total budgets most places)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You might be surprised at the nasty shit that goes on in remote rural communities, anywhere in Canada

Take em to the train station. Lots of empty land and front end loaders around.

 

[FSTO]

You understand the most violent communities in Canada statistically are First Nations communities in remote rural places?

Understand, and I also understand that many first nations want their own "Peacekeepers".


I get my back up as well when there are proposals for fundamental changes to the Navy, so I can see why you have come down on me rather "aggressively" . But the only way to improve our policing is to have open dialogue and have every sacred cow lined up for the bolt to the forehead if the bolt is warranted.

 

[brihard]

Remotely posting someone across the province (If provincial police) is far cry different from posting across the nation (Mounties)

I would say it’s a smaller cry, not a far cry. A shitty, small, violent and remote detachment is all of those things whether it’s in the north of your own province, or a few provinces over. When you’re only coming out on vacation a couple times a year, remoteness is relative.

The bigger is just how rough, how much of a grind those postings can be. But Booter has spoken to that and is a way better voice than I.

As for local police, would the cops in the AOR of SW MB need to be booted and spurred to the level of Tier 2 SOF? There is a pile of money wasted there.

I’m genuinely confused- what are you talking about? What is it that you imagine exists in rural policing that compares in any way to the military, never mind SOF?

 

[FSTO]

I’m genuinely confused- what are you talking about? What is it that you imagine exists in rural policing that compares in any way to the military, never mind SOF?

I may have used a bit of hyperbole.

But I watch the MP's here in Carling strut around (yes I used the word "strut") with their body armour and full utility belt and for what? What could possibly happen within the rarefied air of Carling Campus? A full bore assault by CANGOOSECOM?

So maybe a little more Friendly Bob the policeman and a little less Gerard Butler Olympus has Fallen could be in order these days.

 

[Booter]

Understand, and I also understand that many first nations want their own "Peacekeepers".


I get my back up as well when there are proposals for fundamental changes to the Navy, so I can see why you have come down on me rather "aggressively" . But the only way to improve our policing is to have open dialogue and have every sacred cow lined up for the bolt to the forehead if the bolt is warranted.

That’s fair-

On the topic of peacekeepers- I’d like to see them take this on. RCMP out and their own systems in. There will be some huge issues for a long time- but it’s part of self governance.

This alberta provincial police idea is having the unintended consequence of affecting all rcmp contract staffing. Divisions are now holding their own people in more circumstances because alberta doesn’t totally know what’s happening- so transferring around the contract provinces is very political now because staffing is risk averse and wants a better understanding of the HR map in the coming years- so everything is mostly frozen in place within their divisions. Even outside K. It’s a larger division so it’s numbers affect everything

It’s a perfect storm out there presently for the organization. Recruiting. Retention. Contract retraction.

When GP announced its police- Edmonton and Calgary recruiters were in the city in a heart beat seeking experienced officers. This will be Grande Prairies reality going forward- they will feed the larger forces. The APP in isolated places would do the same.

 

[FSTO]

It’s a perfect storm out there presently for the organization. Recruiting. Retention. Contract retraction.

And you are not alone with that issue.

Cheers!

 

[brihard]

I may have used a bit of hyperbole.

But I watch the MP's here in Carling strut around (yes I used the word "strut") with their body armour and full utility belt and for what? What could possibly happen within the rarefied air of Carling Campus? A full bore assault by CANGOOSECOM?

So maybe a little more Friendly Bob the policeman and a little less Gerard Butler Olympus has Fallen could be in order these days.

So you were literally just talking about the basic duty belt and body armour? That’s bare bones necessary kit to do the job with a modicum of safety. The MP running radar at the entrance to Carling could easily get dispatched to a domestic in the PMQ patch, or to someone who hopped the fence and is acting erratically, or to a former employee who was fired and has shown back up making threats. Police have to be ready immediately for a sudden change in circumstances and duties. Given that you were also referring to RCMP working in rural areas- yeah… You need to pause and think about what two or three rural police officers may get dispatched to, with backup half an hour out or more. There’s a long list of dead rural officers whose stories attest to this.

Being firm, fair and friendly as a police officer is absolutely usually what’s called for, but that doesn’t mean dispensing with essential safety kit. A shift to a provincial police service might see a change in shirt and pant stripe colour, but don’t expect it would fundamentally change policing at all. That said, I absolutely support a move towards provinces providing their own policing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You understand the most violent communities in Canada statistically are First Nations communities in remote rural places?

It's a staggering difference e.g.,

Indigenous people are around six times more likely than non-Indigenous people to be the victims of homicide​

From 2015 to 2020, the average rate of homicides involving an Indigenous victim was six times higher than the rate of homicides involving non-Indigenous victims (8.64 Indigenous victims per 100,000 Indigenous people compared with 1.39 per 100,000 non-Indigenous people). Among the provinces, Saskatchewan (17.57 per 100,000 Indigenous people), Manitoba (14.46 per 100,000 Indigenous people), and Alberta (13.24 per 100,000 Indigenous people) had the highest rates of homicide involving an Indigenous victim. Yukon (20.43 per 100,000 Indigenous people) had the highest rate among the territories.

During this period, the majority of homicides involving an Indigenous victim that were solved by police were committed by a person known to the victim (91% of Indigenous victims compared with 81% of non-Indigenous victims). Moreover, one in six homicides were committed by an intimate partner, and more Indigenous women (42%) than Indigenous men (7.1%) were killed by an intimate partner.

The Daily — Criminal victimization of First Nations, Métis and Inuit people in Canada, 2018 to 2020

First Nations people, Métis and Inuit are overrepresented among victims of violence in Canada. Previous research has suggested a link between this violent victimization and past and present colonial policies, including the residential school system, marginalization and institutionalized racism...

www150.statcan.gc.ca

 

[Kirkhill]

I figured I'd quote you both on this one, just for context...


I'm with Quirky on his post, because as much as we may not like to address the incredibly silent elephant in that room - I think we are all waiting for those test results along with him.

It's NOT a matter of denying that Residential Schools existed, nor is it denying that truly awful things happened in them.

All around, I think we can agree on that Residential Schools have to be among the darkest chapters of Canadian history - and I think the term cultural genocide can certainly be applied in plenty of cases in regards to them.


BUUUTTTT... A few things...

- As I mentioned in my previous post, I don't recall seeing a single article or hearing about this issue in the media even once after the election was over. Not once.

- As has been pointed out by a few folks (most of whom made the news in some form) the number of human remains found outside the former Residential School in Kamloops exceeded the number of people who ever attended that school.

(There needs to be testing done just to confirm the number of bodies there actually are, and if at all possible, what they died from. My understanding is there were animal remains also at the site. It wasn't uncommon for people to die of things that today we think of as extremely treatable.)

- At one point, the people involved were going to go all across Canada with their ground penetrating radar, going from site to site to discover whatever human remains were 'boujd to be at most of the sites.'

But again...I have to fall back to my point of raising an eyebrow & ask... "Why didn't this happen?"


Why didn't this happen? The government seemed incredibly supportive of the idea. Trudeau even created a new national day, Truth & Reconciliation Day.

Why didn't we hear about ANY of it in the news? I'd assume that if that group had gone to even one more Residential School location & found anything similar, it would be HUGE news. But once the election was done, not a peep...


So I am with Quirky on this one - there are some pretty important questions that need to be answered.

Not for any other sake or an agenda - just the honest questions or "wtf actually happened here? How many human remains were ACTUALLY discovered? How many of them died from abuse vs infections or illnesses?




I'm also 'kinda' with you Lumber - I agree it's important that people understand what an awful thing the whole Residential Schools thing really was.

(I just don't think Quirky is a denier at all, I think he's just wanting the answers we all thought were coming but never came...)




I could be totally wrong about all of the above. If more media came out about it, or more sites did actually get surveyed, I somehow totally missed it & I apologize for my ignorance on the matter!

You do realize that the Brits PAID, and still pay, to send their kids to those schools and receive that kind of treatment?

Though they didn't used to have latex suits for the Masters.

 

[lenaitch]

The OPP (and assuming the SQ) do not receive any direct federal funding. They are eligible for a share of any funding that the feds might pony up to the provinces for a particular enforcement or anti-crime initiative. Curiously, the OPP are often not eligible for provincial money tossed at municipal services for a particular initiative.

The OPP (and assuming the RCMP - I don't know about the SQ) has tried to 'hire local'. The problems with this are it is a small pool and a lot of local actually want out of their home area, at least initially. They might have great local knowledge but are also faced with dealing with friends and family. To a kid from a city like Calgary, Upper Rubber Boot Alberta looks little different than Dildo NL; only the travel time home for leave is different. Many of the younger generation don't want to be outside of the city, regardless of where ''outside is.

Anyone who harbours a vision of an Andy Griffiths-type of rural policing model hasn't been paying attention.

Ontario has several treaty-based police services that cover large areas with their members posted in the various FNTs. It is working reasonably well but there are ongoing problems with federal funding and a lot of their staffing is still 'white kids from the south'. Additionally, they are only responsible for their territorial lands, not the land in between, so you still need non-First Nation cops in the area.

But, here in Ontario, because municipalities are OMERS, it's easy enough to "do a lateral" from the big city to a town with a lower call volume.

There are only 45 police services in the province. Sure, you can go from Toronto to several smaller city, but the "town" options are pretty thin. Legislation in the past few years has streamlined moving between municipal and provincial pension plans.

 

[mariomike]

Sure, you can go from Toronto to several smaller city, but the "town" options are pretty thin.

Some guys would grab onto anything, anywhere with OMERS.
Long as it got them out of Scarborough. < smile emoji

Pretty sure all / most of the regional / municipal police, fire and paramedic departments in Ontario are OMERS?

Stand to be corrected.

 

[Kirkhill]

Provincially supporting local communities to raise their own police forces doesn't sound like a bad idea.

Kind of like local school boards and local hospital boards.

Province to train and equip all officers to the same standard. Just like Normal School teachers used to were.

And provincially supervised and integrated.

 

[QV]

It's a staggering difference e.g.,

Indigenous people are around six times more likely than non-Indigenous people to be the victims of homicide​

From 2015 to 2020, the average rate of homicides involving an Indigenous victim was six times higher than the rate of homicides involving non-Indigenous victims (8.64 Indigenous victims per 100,000 Indigenous people compared with 1.39 per 100,000 non-Indigenous people). Among the provinces, Saskatchewan (17.57 per 100,000 Indigenous people), Manitoba (14.46 per 100,000 Indigenous people), and Alberta (13.24 per 100,000 Indigenous people) had the highest rates of homicide involving an Indigenous victim. Yukon (20.43 per 100,000 Indigenous people) had the highest rate among the territories.

During this period, the majority of homicides involving an Indigenous victim that were solved by police were committed by a person known to the victim (91% of Indigenous victims compared with 81% of non-Indigenous victims). Moreover, one in six homicides were committed by an intimate partner, and more Indigenous women (42%) than Indigenous men (7.1%) were killed by an intimate partner.

The Daily — Criminal victimization of First Nations, Métis and Inuit people in Canada, 2018 to 2020

First Nations people, Métis and Inuit are overrepresented among victims of violence in Canada. Previous research has suggested a link between this violent victimization and past and present colonial policies, including the residential school system, marginalization and institutionalized racism...

www150.statcan.gc.ca

Interesting headline. Who are the perpetrators of all this extra violence? They identified who the victims are (indigenous). Why not point out who the offenders are too so readers can have a clear understanding of the context?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It's a staggering difference e.g.,

Indigenous people are around six times more likely than non-Indigenous people to be the victims of homicide from their own Indigenous people.​

Sorry, they forgot to complete their byline.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Provincially supporting local communities to raise their own police forces doesn't sound like a bad idea.

Kind of like local school boards and local hospital boards.

Province to train and equip all officers to the same standard. Just like Normal School teachers used to were.

And provincially supervised and integrated.

My city PD is moving out into the county and taking over town contracts by outbiddinng and out performing the OPP.

 

[Remius]

Interesting headline. Who are the perpetrators of all this extra violence? They identified who the victims are (indigenous). Why not point out who the offenders are too so readers can have a clear understanding of the context?

It isn’t a headline. It’s stats can study. There are other government studies about to the overrepresentation of indigenous people as far as crimes committed is concerned.

 

[QV]

It isn’t a headline. It’s stats can study. There are other government studies about to the overrepresentation of indigenous people as far as crimes committed is concerned.

Misleading nonetheless.

 

[lenaitch]

Pretty sure all / most of the regional / municipal police, fire and paramedic departments in Ontario are OMERS?

As far as I know.

My city PD is moving out into the county and taking over town contracts by outbiddinng and out performing the OPP.

It's been happening since the province downloaded policing to the municipalities in the 1990s. In some cases it was a result of municipal amalgamation (i.e. Strathroy-Caradoc). Sometimes it makes economic sense when the surrounding area is an exurb or suburb of the city; they can cover a adjoining township with a small handful of extra members. In some cases, surrounding municipalities have moved back and forth between municipal and OPP contracts.

In terms of 'bidding', only the OPP is bound by the provincially-mandate costing formula. Municipalities can construct their bids anyway they like and it has happened that taxpayers later learned that they were actually subsidizing policing services in an adjacent municipality.

Bottom line, in the mid-1990 there were approximately 150 municipal services in Ontario; in 2001 that was down into to 70s and is now 44. Since the initial municipal restructuring of the 1990s, only a small handful were due to amalgamations.

 

[OldSolduer]

Interesting headline. Who are the perpetrators of all this extra violence? They identified who the victims are (indigenous). Why not point out who the offenders are too so readers can have a clear understanding of the context?

Because that doesn’t fit the narrative.