3 OPP Officers Shot-May 11th/ 2023

[KevinB]

I'm not so sure. Breonna Taylor's boyfriend was cleared of his attempted murder charge after thinking the police were intruders.

Other ‘No Knock’ warrants have resulted in similar results. I’m not a fan of using them in 99.9% of the situations they are used. I’m a fan of grabbing people on foot if possible between a house and vehicle, a vehicle secondary option and a building as last resort.
Most states down here have a pretty short window from Knock to Breach requirement. If preservation of evidence is an issue, 5-7 seconds lost on ‘Open Up, Police with a Search Warrant’ isn’t going to give anyone much time for destruction beyond a No Knock - I’m also a big fan of repeating ‘Police with a warrant, Hands Up’ during entry.

A veteran Dallas police officer shot his own son a few years back mistaking him for an intruder.

That case was a prime example of someone who probably shouldn’t have been a LEO.
No CONUS LE agency allows for discharge of a firearm at an unknown. There needs to be an articulable threat.
Texas and a few other Stand Your Ground states have made some really terrible decisions in what they interpret lawful shootings in defense of premises and self.

If he has no criminal record and legally owned the firearm and was just going to bed after work it's odd that he would decide to shoot 3 OPP officers out of the blue.

Very odd, but while I find it believable they they may have entered the premises unannounced, the fact he saw flashlights and decided to engage without identifying the individual LEO’s gives me Jack and shit sympathy for him.

Sounds like that's exactly what they're doing. Does he have a point though?

 

[lenaitch]

As mentioned above, there is so much we don't know. The sequence of events, positioning of the various players, etc. will tell the tale. I have a really hard time believing that three non-tactical cops would surreptitiously enter a residence, at night, when responding to a gun call, but who knows. There was one a couple of years ago where a guy made a ruckus at a grocery store then drove home to await the cops. He pinned down two, but didn't notice that he had been flanked by a third. It didn't end well for him.

The 'a man's home is his castle' and stand-your-ground defences aren't nearly as strong here as elsewhere.

but it’s been pretty close a few times. It will eventually be the case that the society demand for a quick comment by police will have them say too much and they will be penalized in some similar way.

I don't know Commissioner Carrique but I think he does come from a fairly strong operational background with York Regional. It was seldom an issue in the past when OPP commissioners typically came up through, or at least spent time in CIB (major crime); more of an issue when they did not. Members making media statement should never be privy to investigative details (but I have seen it happen) but he could have drawn his own conclusion from what he was told. The higher the speaker is in rank, the stronger the media 'handler' needs to be and sometimes it is a real challenge.

You are right - there is so much social pressure for 'the boss' to get out in front of issues. They have to say something and this is what Ontario's SIU has drawn so much heat over because they say virtually nothing. What is said to the media in an unfolding criminal investigation has to be both something and nothing at the same time, but it has to be plausible. I recall an incident where a member was standing in front of the cameras saying we could neither confirm nor deny that a death had occurred - as a body is clearly being carried out of the house in the background of the shot.

 

[brihard]

An update on this story: the trial is underway. Sounds like there was some really graphic and awful evidence from Sgt Mueller’s body cam.

OPP Sgt. Eric Mueller's death captured on video; killer says he thought it was intruders

Police bodycam video was revealed to the jury in the first-degree murder trial of Alain Bellefeuille.

ottawacitizen.com

Non-paywalled link: https://archive.is/4Zby4

 

[RedFive]

An update on this story: the trial is underway. Sounds like there was some really graphic and awful evidence from Sgt Mueller’s body cam.

OPP Sgt. Eric Mueller's death captured on video; killer says he thought it was intruders

Police bodycam video was revealed to the jury in the first-degree murder trial of Alain Bellefeuille.

ottawacitizen.com

Non-paywalled link: https://archive.is/4Zby4

That article goes to painful lengths to try and justify the fact the accused didn't know it was police and reacted in self defence, and then in a single sentence at the very end of the story allows "After Mueller is downed in the first volley of nine rounds, Bellefeuille goes on to shoot outside, then from the mudroom, and the porch. His rounds hit cruisers. One officer who was struck never entered the home and was hit, either by a direct bullet, fragment or ricochet bullet, after taking cover behind a cruiser.

In all, Bellefeuille fired 17 rounds, killed one police officer and wounded two other officers."

Garbage journalism.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Just an observation, but there is a lot of property crime and very little security on property in rural Canada from the police. If a person was woken up in the middle of the night by noises caused by an unseen stranger inside their house the very last thing a reasonable thinking person might surmise is that it could be the police. Especially if that person didn’t call the police and the property itself was quiet without disturbance. That much I can believe.

But the body camera evidence, the shooting inside and then outside of the house suggests there’s more to come. And I have to wonder if the neighbour was Swatting him, not that it’s a justification for what happened but it could be there is history between the two neighbours.

 

[RedFive]

My point is its bad journalism. 90% of the article is making the case that this man was justified in killing one, and wounding two police officers and then leaves the slight caveat of, having recognized it was the police, continued to engage in a gunfight with them for a considerable amount of time/ammunition to a single paragraph at the end.

What efforts were made by those officers to identify themselves and their presence prior to forcing entry will be key in this case.

 

[The Bread Guy]

In fairness, if the bulk of the day’s testimony was defence, gotta share what was said. The test’ll be how it’s covered over the length of the trial. We’ll see …

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

My point is its bad journalism. 90% of the article is making the case that this man was justified in killing one, and wounding two police officers and then leaves the slight caveat of, having recognized it was the police, continued to engage in a gunfight with them for a considerable amount of time/ammunition to a single paragraph at the end.

What efforts were made by those officers to identify themselves and their presence prior to forcing entry will be key in this case.

That wasn't how I read the article. It does seem though that this piece within the article was poorly written and conflates the issue.

I agree with @The Bread Guy need to see how it's covered.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Why were the police in the man's house ?

Were they allowed in or did they just walk in ?

 

[dapaterson]

Why were the police in the man's house ?

Were they allowed in or did they just walk in ?

According to the article, they were called after a neighbor alleged that they hear gunshots, and entered through the unlocked front door.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Why were the police in the man's house ?

Were they allowed in or did they just walk in ?

This guy is definitely going to do some jail time. This is Canada so we all know the law is not on your side to instigate a shootout even for "self defence".

He shot through a wall, never id'ed anyone, etc.. and then fired out a window in the blind at a perceived threat that was running away. My take is he is gonna do some serious jail-time, lifetime firearms ban, yadayadayada.

Seeing flashlights isn't an excuse to go full combat unload and fire blindly at the wall. Now maybe the police also made some mistakes... which to me is a mitigating circumstance but that just means maybe it's manslaughter vs 1st or 2nd degree murder.

 

[brihard]

Why were the police in the man's house ?

Were they allowed in or did they just walk in ?

Neighbour called saying they heard screaming and, they believed, a gunshot. That’s more than enough to invoke the common law authority to enter a dwelling without a warrant to ensure the safety of those inside. The Supreme Court affirmed this in Godroy in 1999, even going so far as to say we have a duty to ensure the safety of the public.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/1999/1999canlii709/1999canlii709.html

 

[Haggis]

What efforts were made by those officers to identify themselves and their presence prior to forcing entry will be key in this case.

The backdoor was locked. The didn't announce themselves there, but knocked, getting no reply, but the dog barked. The entered by an unlocked front door. There was no forced entry.

From the linked article:
"The officers then went to the front door, only this time they announced themselves after walking in for the police wellness check.

“Ah, Hello Alain — police. Hey there dog… Hello Alain, police!” Lauzon announces."

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Neighbour called saying they heard screaming and, they believed, a gunshot. That’s more than enough to invoke the common law authority to enter a dwelling without a warrant to ensure the safety of those inside. The Supreme Court affirmed this in Godroy in 1999, even going so far as to say we have a duty to ensure the safety of the public.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/1999/1999canlii709/1999canlii709.html

Yep....

This is one of the reasons I never want to live in a Condo/Apartment building..... ever again.

I had a super bitchy neigbour call the police on me once when I lived in an apartment complex. Made up a bunch of shit about me too.... that never happened

Although I was flattered when they referred to me as a "large and intimidating male" in their statement

I am a firm believer that "Good fences, make good neighbours"

 

[brihard]

The backdoor was locked. The didn't announce themselves there, but knocked, getting no reply, but the dog barked. The entered by an unlocked front door. There was no forced entry.

From the linked article:
"The officers then went to the front door, only this time they announced themselves after walking in for the police wellness check.

“Ah, Hello Alain — police. Hey there dog… Hello Alain, police!” Lauzon announces."

And there’s body cam video from the killed officer that takes a lot of the ambiguity out of the whole thing… And reveals the accused leaning over the dying officer and telling him “you fucked with the wrong motherfucker” before going on to continue shooting at more police.

He fired 17 rounds total, in what reads like four distinct volleys, not even accounting for reloads, which presumably happened given that he was firing a semiautomatic rifle.

He claims to have been awakened and surprised. That will also raise questions about how his rifle and ammunition were stored.

He pretty much has to take the stand if he wants to raise any viable defence, but if he does crown’s gonna butcher him on cross.

For my money, I suspect he’ll eat manslaughter, a lesser included offence of aggravated assault on the attempted murder of the officer he shot through the walls, and attempted murder on the officer he shot outside. However the sheer number of shots he fired through the walls, and the animus shown when he spoke to the dying officer might prove the necessary intent to kill required for murder and attempted murder.

 

[lenaitch]

And there’s body cam video from the killed officer that takes a lot of the ambiguity out of the whole thing… And reveals the accused leaning over the dying officer and telling him “you fucked with the wrong motherfucker” before going on to continue shooting at more police.

He fired 17 rounds total, in what reads like four distinct volleys, not even accounting for reloads, which presumably happened given that he was firing a semiautomatic rifle.

He claims to have been awakened and surprised. That will also raise questions about how his rifle and ammunition were stored.

He pretty much has to take the stand if he wants to raise any viable defence, but if he does crown’s gonna butcher him on cross.

For my money, I suspect he’ll eat manslaughter, a lesser included offence of aggravated assault on the attempted murder of the officer he shot through the walls, and attempted murder on the officer he shot outside. However the sheer number of shots he fired through the walls, and the animus shown when he spoke to the dying officer might prove the necessary intent to kill required for murder and attempted murder.

I suspect the camera evidence will be crucial in establishing intent. If it had shown an outburst or confusion or remorse I could see a mitigating defence being successful.

It is interesting that two OPP member murder trials are ongoing right now with BWC camera evidence being crucial when, at the time, they were only being trialed in several locations.

 

[brihard]

I suspect the camera evidence will be crucial in establishing intent. If it had shown an outburst or confusion or remorse I could see a mitigating defence being successful.

It is interesting that two OPP member murder trials are ongoing right now with BWC camera evidence being crucial when, at the time, they were only being trialed in several locations.

Huh, you’re right, I hadn’t thought of that.

I see body worn cameras as a very good thing for the profession.

 

[RangerRay]

I suspect the camera evidence will be crucial in establishing intent. If it had shown an outburst or confusion or remorse I could see a mitigating defence being successful.

It is interesting that two OPP member murder trials are ongoing right now with BWC camera evidence being crucial when, at the time, they were only being trialed in several locations.

If I were shooting actual home invaders through walls then shot at them as they ran away into the street, I don’t think I’d be getting off…

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

And there’s body cam video from the killed officer that takes a lot of the ambiguity out of the whole thing… And reveals the accused leaning over the dying officer and telling him “you fucked with the wrong motherfucker” before going on to continue shooting at more police.

He fired 17 rounds total, in what reads like four distinct volleys, not even accounting for reloads, which presumably happened given that he was firing a semiautomatic rifle.

He claims to have been awakened and surprised. That will also raise questions about how his rifle and ammunition were stored.

He pretty much has to take the stand if he wants to raise any viable defence, but if he does crown’s gonna butcher him on cross.

For my money, I suspect he’ll eat manslaughter, a lesser included offence of aggravated assault on the attempted murder of the officer he shot through the walls, and attempted murder on the officer he shot outside. However the sheer number of shots he fired through the walls, and the animus shown when he spoke to the dying officer might prove the necessary intent to kill required for murder and attempted murder.

I think so as well, you don't fire 17 rds in multiple directions and call that self-defence. He clearly had intent to shoot whoever he thought had entered his house. The self-defence argument becomes even weaker once he started shooting out the window at the "threat" that had retreated from the house.

The way I read the story, he fired nine rounds through the wall, then fired another 8 rounds out the window at the other Officers who took cover behind their cruisers. He only went in the hallway after firing through the wall and out the window.

Sounds like he probably had a high capacity mag, probably had the weapon improperly stored, and also had ammunition and bombed up Mags readily available.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Huh, you’re right, I hadn’t thought of that.

I see body worn cameras as a very good thing for the profession.

It's very good, it adds another layer of transparency and accountability. They are going to be widespread in any industry or occupation with a high risk to the public.